deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

firstamendment · 04-14-2022, 07:40 PM

I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx

cincinnana · 04-15-2022, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstamendment

I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx

Quick answer.....no.

The concept sounds good on paper though.
Some forum members have dug a large deep glass covered pits and planted in the bottom to take advantage the natural warmth.

Basjoos planted at normal depth or slightly deeper you will have no issues.
Over time mature basjoo will even raise a bit from the original planting depth.

Blue Java is a total tropical and wont tolerate the lower temps for 8 months.

Heck, give it a try and if the results are consistent over time

raygrogan · 04-15-2022, 05:38 PM

I can give you how they bury taro in Japan, in warmer climate, and can tell you what did not work for me in zone 5.

The taro variety is called satoimo (aka dasheen, eddo, Colocasia esculenta var antiquorum L). It is grown for the little side cormlets, which have less "itch" than regular Hawaiian taro. It can be cooked in stir-fry. It is more temperate than taro, and needs a few "chill hours" each winter to be ready to take off in the spring. So a little different from your tropical bananas.

I have two friends who have told me how people overwinter it in Japan, near Tokyo and Nagoya.

The first said they separate the cormlets in the fall and bury the individual "potatoes": "Farmers keep some of the harvested potatoes, and bury them 50 cm (1.5 ft) below ground, IMMEDIATELY after the harvest. (You don’t even dry them.) In the spring, you dig them up. When you plant it, you plant it 20 cm (0.6 feet) below grade."

The second sent me pictures and labels. Their technique was to bury the whole clump, (I think without digging it up), in the late fall. The pix clearly show a bunch of dried plants (stalks, like maybe cattails, onion flowers, etc.) then a wee bit of dirt, then a sheet of plastic with more dirt on top of that.

My failure was sorta like the first one - except here in zone 5 I went down about 3 feet trying to beat the cold. In the spring it was a soggy rotten mess. I have not tried the second method. But I think it would work better, to both not disturb it in the fall, and to keep it relatively dry vs down in a well. It might take a bale of hay to give it enough insulation, and maybe 2 layers of plastic with something inbetween. And be on a hill with good drainage. Good luck.

firstamendment · 04-15-2022, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raygrogan

I can give you how they bury taro in Japan, in warmer climate, and can tell you what did not work for me in zone 5.

The taro variety is called satoimo (aka dasheen, eddo, Colocasia esculenta var antiquorum L). It is grown for the little side cormlets, which have less "itch" than regular Hawaiian taro. It can be cooked in stir-fry. It is more temperate than taro, and needs a few "chill hours" each winter to be ready to take off in the spring. So a little different from your tropical bananas.

I have two friends who have told me how people overwinter it in Japan, near Tokyo and Nagoya.

The first said they separate the cormlets in the fall and bury the individual "potatoes": "Farmers keep some of the harvested potatoes, and bury them 50 cm (1.5 ft) below ground, IMMEDIATELY after the harvest. (You don’t even dry them.) In the spring, you dig them up. When you plant it, you plant it 20 cm (0.6 feet) below grade."

The second sent me pictures and labels. Their technique was to bury the whole clump, (I think without digging it up), in the late fall. The pix clearly show a bunch of dried plants (stalks, like maybe cattails, onion flowers, etc.) then a wee bit of dirt, then a sheet of plastic with more dirt on top of that.

My failure was sorta like the first one - except here in zone 5 I went down about 3 feet trying to beat the cold. In the spring it was a soggy rotten mess. I have not tried the second method. But I think it would work better, to both not disturb it in the fall, and to keep it relatively dry vs down in a well. It might take a bale of hay to give it enough insulation, and maybe 2 layers of plastic with something inbetween. And be on a hill with good drainage. Good luck.

Thanks. A hill with good drainage given your observations definitely sounds good. It also sounds like the Japanese in method 2 were both trying to deflect any water going straight down, while absorbing the water that still made it through through the sides. I am not sure what the weather is like in Japan, nor how waterlogged underground soil flows in a general sense [and certainly not in navier-stokes terms either], nonetheless we probably have a bigger issue with snow melt. Hence a hill sounds good [maybe with erosion control], also maybe having a plastic sheet [sealed] around the sides of the pit/hole and possibly deeper than the corm.

I'm getting my Basjoo on the 17th, and the blue java on the 19th if it survives the weather in transit. It'll be a while before I have extra pups to start playing with, and plenty of time to think and ask questions before I do anything.

PR-Giants · 04-30-2022, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstamendment

I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx

What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.

sddarkman619 · 02-18-2023, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.

So after it had achieved the dumbell shape, can you dig it up and seperate the two bulbs and grow each out?

PR-Giants · 04-25-2023, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sddarkman619

So after it had achieved the dumbell shape, can you dig it up and seperate the two bulbs and grow each out?

No, because there is still only one main growing point. The lower bulb will only grow the auxiliary buds while the upper bulb can grow both the main growing point and any of the auxiliary buds.

What's important is to just understand the principle. I certainly wouldn't recommend using this technique because it is extremely inefficient but it should help someone to be able to figure out a much more efficient way of achieving the same results. I normally use my photos to show what happens by using different techniques but that's only because it's easier for me to find my photos opposed to searching someone else's photo gallery. There's a member from Cincinnati that has some photos of a very efficient technique that's basically a Master Class on "Mass Macropropagation".

beam2050 · 05-03-2023, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.

i have at least 2 do that one above ground and one below.

the one below ground was a fhia-17 i have had growing in the ground for 6 years. i decided to redo the mat an found it growing like this in the first photo.

the second photo is a sweetheart i found broken off last year. it is currently growing in a pot.

i have a 3rd one [probably] of a banana that i broke off with my lawnmower. it has been growing in a cracked 5 gallon bucket planted 2 inches from the bottom for almost a year now. i have yet to take it out of the bucket.

PR-Giants · 05-07-2023, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beam2050

the second photo is a sweetheart i found broken off last year. it is currently growing in a pot.

That's an impressive photo.

obdiah · 12-01-2023, 08:12 PM

hi haven't posted in a while but here is a link to and old post that has been the only way I have reliably found to fruit edible bananas in the north Carolina foot hills this method works as i have fruited raja puri and others with it the ground temperature prevents freezing without additional heat the only cavat is drainage too much water in cold weather will drown the corm banana sphere pit greenhouse

04-14-2022, 07:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
firstamendment Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 3 BananaBucks : 2,814 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 3 Times Was Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground? I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot. For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations. Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south. Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface. Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried? Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm? Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case? Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again. Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter? Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface? Thx

04-15-2022, 05:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
raygrogan raygrogan's Photo Gallery Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 250 BananaBucks : 10,499 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 125 Times Was Thanked 314 Times in 166 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 17 Times	Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground? I can give you how they bury taro in Japan, in warmer climate, and can tell you what did not work for me in zone 5. The taro variety is called satoimo (aka dasheen, eddo, Colocasia esculenta var antiquorum L). It is grown for the little side cormlets, which have less "itch" than regular Hawaiian taro. It can be cooked in stir-fry. It is more temperate than taro, and needs a few "chill hours" each winter to be ready to take off in the spring. So a little different from your tropical bananas. I have two friends who have told me how people overwinter it in Japan, near Tokyo and Nagoya. The first said they separate the cormlets in the fall and bury the individual "potatoes": "Farmers keep some of the harvested potatoes, and bury them 50 cm (1.5 ft) below ground, IMMEDIATELY after the harvest. (You don’t even dry them.) In the spring, you dig them up. When you plant it, you plant it 20 cm (0.6 feet) below grade." The second sent me pictures and labels. Their technique was to bury the whole clump, (I think without digging it up), in the late fall. The pix clearly show a bunch of dried plants (stalks, like maybe cattails, onion flowers, etc.) then a wee bit of dirt, then a sheet of plastic with more dirt on top of that. My failure was sorta like the first one - except here in zone 5 I went down about 3 feet trying to beat the cold. In the spring it was a soggy rotten mess. I have not tried the second method. But I think it would work better, to both not disturb it in the fall, and to keep it relatively dry vs down in a well. It might take a bale of hay to give it enough insulation, and maybe 2 layers of plastic with something inbetween. And be on a hill with good drainage. Good luck.

12-01-2023, 08:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
obdiah Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 307 BananaBucks : 91,599 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 164 Times Was Thanked 576 Times in 186 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 22 Times	Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground? hi haven't posted in a while but here is a link to and old post that has been the only way I have reliably found to fruit edible bananas in the north Carolina foot hills this method works as i have fruited raja puri and others with it the ground temperature prevents freezing without additional heat the only cavat is drainage too much water in cold weather will drown the corm banana sphere pit greenhouse

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