tony palmer

I don’t wont to get bogged down by the naming of this plant so i’m quite happy to simply refer to it as Musa “Yangtze”. what I would really like to no is whether it is hardy ,there is a sizable clump in the UK that has been planted out for several years, that originally came from Martin Gibbons I know the stem remains solid down to -4 but any lower than that i’m not sure, Mark Hall, has a pup from that clump so maybe he can chip in.

Mark Hall

HiTony, The picture of the clump planted outside has both Sikkimenis and Yangtze side by side.



Also the link in the earlier thread (exo centre ) refers to the Itinerans Indian form as being a Yunnan and also a Cheesmanii too.

All very confusing.

I think I posted pictures on here of my Yangtze with pup but I can't find them

Attached Images

	yangtze ans sikki.JPG (113.8 KB, 31 views)
	yangtze leaf.JPG (86.8 KB, 12 views)

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Time Flies like an Arrow.....Fruit flies like a Banana.

mrbungalow

I am almost certain the "Musa Nepal" on this guys' website is plain old sikkimensis or atleast a sikkimensis cross of some sort.... the red/brown midribs, general shape of the leaves, and the powder seem to point in that direction.

As far as I know there is no species officially described as "Musa Nepal".

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Mark Hall

Here,s the pups.

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	DSCF0790.JPG (108.8 KB, 25 views)
	DSCF0791.JPG (108.6 KB, 19 views)

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Time Flies like an Arrow.....Fruit flies like a Banana.

griphuz

Just as mrbungalow says, I think it's just some sikkimensis variety...
The first sikki-seeds that came to Europe did not really have alot of red (not at the top of the leaves like 'Red Tiger' but also not alot at the underside).
Gereral remark; don't believe to much people claim on the internet, some people tend to be very optimistic and call a species hardy when they have had the luck of overwintering it outdoors for one or two years in a very mild winter.
My English is far from perfect, and that's not what we are here for, I know, but if you look at his English, maybe it's a reflection of the general level of education? It's a litteral translation from Dutch!! Word for word!

tony palmer

If you meen the seed first sold rather erroneously as Musa Hookerii and supplied by Toby Spanner in 1998, I have had that in my garden for several years now, and it does seem quite different to the sikkimensis you see around today, but it is different to Musa Nepal , note the glaucus underside on the leaf of Nepal and on the leaf stalk, you don’t see that at all on my sikkimensis. personally i think it may be Musa Tibet, i have bean told that he got it from Jean-luc Penninckx

Attached Images

Picture 747.jpg (111.9 KB, 16 views)

mrbungalow

Sikkimensis grown from the same batch of seeds can show great variation. Some are more red, some ar all green, some have alot of wax, some have no wax, some have dark blotches on the stems, some don't.

That's basically the root of the problem with these species-bananas: "Wich are forms of polymorphism* in wild musas, and wich are distinct species?"




*Polymorphism in biology occurs when two or more clearly different phenotypes exist in the same population of a species — in other words, the occurrence of more than one form or morph.

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griphuz

Hi Tony,
Indeed, 'Tibet' might come closer, but doesn't have any red midrib as I see on this picture if I'm right.
And Jean-luc (no dissrespect) has brought more names on the market in bananacountry. 'Tibet' is thought to be just a specific clone of basjoo according to some,...just aswell as 'Fujiama', 'Saporro' and 'Sakhalin' are...

I wouldn't get my hopes up to high about this Musa 'Nepal' actually being a 'new' or interesting species. Much more likely just a missnamed species with an alledged hardiness claimed by just one person for now...

the flying dutchman

Hey Remco, you forgot to mention Musa Basjoo 'Tchetchenie'

Ron

griphuz

ow, didn't hear that name before Ron,
but I can guess where it's supposidly from, haha!
Can you tell me more about it?

the flying dutchman

Here you are

Bananiers

Btw how are my Brahea Armata super silver seedlings doing

Ron

tony palmer

Hi griphuz,
i have a frend in Cornwall, and he has Musa Tibet that he bought from Kobakoba, and it definitely isn't Musa Basjoo this is what David Constantine
says about.
Musa 'Tibet'

Dombo

Hello,

the picture in the first link does not allow to make a accurate identification.
Musa Nepal seems to be the same as Musa Tibet and as the same as Musa Yangtse.
The difference is, that the Nepal and the Tibet was certainly tissue cultured.
And the red midrib can also exist by Musa basjoo, Musa itinerans, Musa balbisiana and Musa sikkimensis. My Yangtse is different to the mentioned Musas and I have all this species to compare.
Mine is surely no sikkimensis, but may be it could be a unknown form of balbisiana or itinerans, or a hybrid, but than it is not a species of the described/known itinerans and balbisiana forms that I know.

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Greetings
Olli

tony palmer

Hi Olli,

I think your right they could well end up as a new species , that is Musa Tibet and Musa Yangtze
I think the person that named Musa Nepal was on the bottle when he named it. Its like frank said we need to grow them along side each other to try help identify them its no good just guessing.





Tony

Mark Hall

Tropical centre are saying its one of the more cold tolerent bananas and a good candidate for the outside garden.
Musa tibet

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Time Flies like an Arrow.....Fruit flies like a Banana.

bikoro child

hello you can find Musa Tibet here they says it's the same as Musa Yangtse they also say it grows in zone 8
Musa sp tibet de la famille des Musacées

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Ivan

mrbungalow

Accurate ID is as you say difficult without a flower, but I still think the photos in the first link tells us alot. It tells us it's not likely to be a balbisiana hybrid, since typical "unattached/rounded balbisiana leaves" seems * to be a dominant trait in musa. If you look at plantains, wich usually contain more B genes than A genes, most of these have the typical balbisiana shaped leaves.
In the photo the leaves are "attached" like acuminata or sikkimensis.

Further I recall hearing that true Musa Balbisiana isn't supposed to have red colouring at all. Even though variability exists within the species, it is said to be alot less variable than for example Musa Acuminata. On top of this we know balbisiana hybridizes often in the himalayan foothills, (ex. sikkimensis, cheesmani, nagensium).

Sorting the genus Musa is almost impossible, and bringing hybrids into the picture, well, certainly doesn't make it easier!! And what if hybrids breed with hybrids etc. etc. Can make a poor guy go crazy, but basically this is the reason why I am weary of vendors selling "New possibly super cold hardy banana species.." At the same time, nothing should be untried, so I try to find some kind of balance! ;-)

Musa Yangtse is described atleast, so you could get more info from there. Musa Nepal is not a described species, as far as I know only a misplaced name for Ensete glaucum.


* I say "seems" because I am not certain about this!!

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Dombo

Hello Erlend,

the Musa balbisiana in the botanical garden in Cologne has red colouring.
look here, there is a photo of the Musa Balbisiana in Cologne

May be it is not a pure Balbisiana, I don't know.

The Musa sp. Yangtse is coldresistent, because I know someone in the swiss, who has cultivated this Musa outside.
But it does not seem to be so hardy like Musa basjoo.
In the next years I will make my own experiences with the Musa sp. Yangtse.

I think the photo in the first link http://www.exo-center.com/Musa%20Nepal.htm doesn't help, because the leaves are wet and glossy, there is back light, only one view and this is small.
To say more, there should be more detailed views, for example of the top, of the leaves, under the leaves, of the petioles, ...and so on.

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Greetings
Olli

mrbungalow

I must agree with you there. I think I managed to look at another photo... Sorry! Just forget what I said about leaf-shape etc. here!

I was wondering if anybody by chance has seed-pictures?

The legendary balbisiana in Cologne botanical gardens is legendary! But are you sure it's red/brown and not black?
Actually, I think I heard it from someone here on bananas.org that balbisiana is sometimes black but never red! Anyone want to step forward?

Erlend

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Dombo

Hello Erlend,

I have a book, there are more pictures of the Musa balbisiana in Cologne.
It has red colouring.
In the description of the book it is also mentioned that it has red colouring.

And here in the description it was also mentioned, that it has red colouring.
look here and klick on the left side on Musa balbisiana

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Greetings
Olli