mycorrhizae and mulch relationship?

Darkman · 08-14-2010, 05:29 PM

I have read in several posts that mulch is important to mycorrhizae. One post said that the mulch needs to have a one inch diameter. What is the relationship with mulch? I thought mycorrhizae had a relationship with the fine root hairs. I can get wood chips from tree cutters or I can get pine tree bark mulch. Which is better or is there sometimes else better?

Thanks,

Richard · 08-14-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I have read in several posts that mulch is important to mycorrhizae.

Yes, and it is important to most plants in general because it keeps the surface of the soil from drying out too quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

One post said that the mulch needs to have a one inch diameter.

Yes. Less than that and you are approaching the granularity of compost with does not provide enough aeration, percolation -- and provides a home for the seeds of weeds to grow in. Larger than 1 inch (say, 2 inch or larger) provides too much aeration and allows too much moisture to escape via evaporation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

What is the relationship with mulch?

Here it is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

... The most cost effective means of innoculating soil with mycorrhizae is to mix in worm castings at the time of planting, then make sure the surface of the ground has a 3 to 4 inch layer of 1-inch diameter mulch to keep the surface from drying out too much. Applied this way, mycorrhizae need only be added once. The population will then remain with the plants unless the soil is deeply treated with an extreme fungicide. Note also that many soils already contain mycorrhizae: the gardener simply needs to put mulch on the surface so that the population can flourish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I thought mycorrhizae had a relationship with the fine root hairs.

Yes. It is not an exclusive partnership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I can get wood chips from tree cutters or I can get pine tree bark mulch. Which is better or is there sometimes else better?

Never use mulch or compost unless it has been thoroughly composted.

mikevan · 08-14-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I have read in several posts that mulch is important to mycorrhizae. One post said that the mulch needs to have a one inch diameter. What is the relationship with mulch? I thought mycorrhizae had a relationship with the fine root hairs. I can get wood chips from tree cutters or I can get pine tree bark mulch. Which is better or is there sometimes else better?

Thanks,

Endomycorrhizal fungi is important for most plants and critical for a few. Others depend on Ectomycorrhizal fungi that form sheaths on the outside of the roots but those are mostly relegated to the likes of conifers and oaks and similar.

Compost is irrelevant to the fungi - it resides on plant roots. Compost is beneficial to the overall soil health tho. It's best to put it on top of the soil and let the soil life bring it down into the soil. As for mulch, I mulch with the purpose of making on-location compost, or sheet-composting. So I prefer smaller granulation that decomposes faster and just keep piling it on as it decomposes and is taken into the soil.

If your soil is a typical suburban yard, you may or may not have a decent colonization of endomycorrhizal fungi. Most suburbs nowadays is developed from old farmlands that have been blasted with phosphorous rich fertilizers. These fertilizers shocks mycorrhizal fungus to death so these soils can be very much devoid of this fungus and you may want to consider inoculating. The typical over-fertilized lawn can be similarly devoid of mycorrhizal fungi. If you're living on fairly virgin meadows and forest land, inoculating may not be necessary.

Inoculation involves exposing the roots to spores and hyphal fragments. The best way to inoculate for certain is to use prepared inoculas like what can be obtained from Fungi Perfecti or TandJEnterprises. Direct application via holes poked in around the plant is an option. Or vectoring it in with another plant can work too - clover and alfalfa can be inoculated and planted around the tree and their roots will form a network that will facilitate hyphal strands infecting the target roots. Both methods can be used simultaniously too. Soil composition does have an effect on how quickly this happens. Thick clay soil is slower to be colonized than loose, loamy soil.

Richard · 08-15-2010, 09:21 AM

I encourage all of you to visit a commercial mycorrhizae farm where the product is grown in large quantities for the retail and agricultural markets. There are several here in the U.S., and the world's largest producer is in Croatia.

Darkman · 08-15-2010, 06:41 PM

Richard stated about Mulch
"Yes, and it is important to most plants in general because it keeps the surface of the soil from drying out too quickly."

Darkman replied
and that along with the nutrient benefits it gives the plant is why I mulch.

Originally posted by Darkman
"One post said that the mulch needs to have a one inch diameter."

Richard replied to the original post by Darkman
"Yes. Less than that and you are approaching the granularity of compost with does not provide enough aeration, percolation -- and provides a home for the seeds of weeds to grow in. Larger than 1 inch (say, 2 inch or larger) provides too much aeration and allows too much moisture to escape via evaporation. "

Darkman replied
I mainly use Oak tree leaves (small ones like live oaks) that break down in about a year. I mulch 4"-6" thick and I make sure I water thoroughly first. Everywhere I do this I have large quanititites of earthworms present and they make quick work of the leaves. They form a mat quickly and I have very few weeds that germinate. The ones that do pull up easily. I have never noticed any problem with aeration or moisture percolation. Recently I have used pine straw around my bananas. It breaks down faster than the leaves and water goes right through it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikevan

Endomycorrhizal fungi is important for most plants and critical for a few. Others depend on Ectomycorrhizal fungi that form sheaths on the outside of the roots but those are mostly relegated to the likes of conifers and oaks and similar.

Compost is irrelevant to the fungi - it resides on plant roots. Compost is beneficial to the overall soil health tho. It's best to put it on top of the soil and let the soil life bring it down into the soil. As for mulch, I mulch with the purpose of making on-location compost, or sheet-composting. So I prefer smaller granulation that decomposes faster and just keep piling it on as it decomposes and is taken into the soil.

If your soil is a typical suburban yard, you may or may not have a decent colonization of endomycorrhizal fungi. Most suburbs nowadays is developed from old farmlands that have been blasted with phosphorous rich fertilizers. These fertilizers shocks mycorrhizal fungus to death so these soils can be very much devoid of this fungus and you may want to consider inoculating. The typical over-fertilized lawn can be similarly devoid of mycorrhizal fungi. If you're living on fairly virgin meadows and forest land, inoculating may not be necessary.

Inoculation involves exposing the roots to spores and hyphal fragments. The best way to inoculate for certain is to use prepared inoculas like what can be obtained from Fungi Perfecti or TandJEnterprises. Direct application via holes poked in around the plant is an option. Or vectoring it in with another plant can work too - clover and alfalfa can be inoculated and planted around the tree and their roots will form a network that will facilitate hyphal strands infecting the target roots. Both methods can be used simultaniously too. Soil composition does have an effect on how quickly this happens. Thick clay soil is slower to be colonized than loose, loamy soil.

Endomycorrhizal fungi is important for most plants and critical for a few.

Which plants are they critical for?

So I prefer smaller granulation that decomposes faster and just keep piling it on as it decomposes and is taken into the soil.

Would you suggest I chop up the leaves before I put them down and then cover them with a coarser mulch? I have considered this.

My area consists of unimproved lightly forested land at least since the 1950's. I doubt there has been any fertilizer or any other chemicals applied here. It was probably a mixture of Long Leaf Pine, Scrub Oak, some Live Oak and Turkey Oak prior to the fifties. Soil is mostly sand with whatever nutrients that resulted from natural forest litter decomposition. I would think that it would benefit from inoculation at least the areas where I plan to plant fruit trees and bananas. Would you agree with that or is there a test for Endomycorrhizal fungi?

clover and alfalfa can be inoculated and planted around the tree and their roots will form a network that will facilitate hyphal strands infecting the target roots.

If I planted the target plants early enough, I could use both methods and use the clover which would die with the heat of summer or with the covering with mulch. The clover would provide extra nutrients. Does that sound right.

Any other thoughts you may have a freshly prepared beds are welcome.

__________________

Richard · 08-15-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I mainly use Oak tree leaves (small ones like live oaks) that break down in about a year. I mulch 4"-6" thick and I make sure I water thoroughly first.

You are making compost in-situ. Be aware that deciduous oaks disburse chemical compounds into their leaves in the Fall that can be toxic to the roots of some annuals and a few perennials -- basically their natural competitors.

Sounds like your soil is rich in microbes. Before spending time and money on adding something, it would be prudent to get a soil test kit from the your county Agricultural department. When you send in the samples, be sure to have them test for spore counts of mycorrhizae along with the standard tests. Typical cost is $40 to $60.

saltydad · 08-16-2010, 02:11 AM

Our county (and many others) collect the leaves in the fall. These are then made into a leaf mulch. I'm thinking of trying that instead of my typical hardwood shredded mulch next year. Thoughts?

mbfirey · 08-16-2010, 05:23 AM

Just keep in mind that leaves or pine straw will make soil more Acid...

Richard · 08-16-2010, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltydad

Our county (and many others) collect the leaves in the fall. These are then made into a leaf mulch. I'm thinking of trying that instead of my typical hardwood shredded mulch next year. Thoughts?

Leaf mulch is an oxymoron, it is actually compost in the making. When cured properly it is a great addition to a soil mix used at the time of planting. Applying it to the surface after planting can be better than putting nothing on the surface depending upon how water is delivered to the plants. A better choice is cured mulch that is on average 1-inch in diameter. A 4-inch layer provides about optimum conditions for the health of a good soil and most perennials -- plus some herbaceous plants including bananas. For further information on the subject a person could examine textbooks and/or peer-reviewed published field studies from an agricultural department at a university.

Darkman · 08-16-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltydad

Our county (and many others) collect the leaves in the fall. These are then made into a leaf mulch. I'm thinking of trying that instead of my typical hardwood shredded mulch next year. Thoughts?

I have used uncomposted leaves for years and they have definately improved the soil where I use them. Most of the plants I grow like an acid soil and I have not had any problems. When the Oak tree leaves fall in the early spring everyone bags them up and puts them out by the road for collection. I drive around and load my truck up. Free mulch! I easily collected two hundred bags this year and I am down to about fifty now.

Thanks,
Charles

Richard · 08-17-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

I have used uncomposted leaves for years and they have definately improved the soil where I use them. Most of the plants I grow like an acid soil and I have not had any problems. When the Oak tree leaves fall in the early spring everyone bags them up and puts them out by the road for collection. I drive around and load my truck up. Free mulch! I easily collected two hundred bags this year and I am down to about fifty now.

Thanks,
Charles

Leaf drop in the spring ... so these are California live oaks, Quercus agrifolia? These are modestly acidic. Generally soils composted with their leaves have pH of about 6.0. They are also highly prized as compost. The famous Camellia garden at the Huntington Library was purposely created adjacent to a row of Live Oaks.

Darkman · 08-17-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Leaf drop in the spring ... so these are California live oaks, Quercus agrifolia? These are modestly acidic. Generally soils composted with their leaves have pH of about 6.0. They are also highly prized as compost. The famous Camellia garden at the Huntington Library was purposely created adjacent to a row of Live Oaks.

Not California as I live in Florida, Not sure of the Scientific name but we have about 4-5 species that all drop their leaves in the spring. They each drop for about two weeks and each variety drop overlaps another variety so I have about a six week window when there is a constant supply of bagged leaves. I could get thousands of bags but I do have to go to work. LOL

Richard · 08-17-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkman

Not California as I live in Florida, Not sure of the Scientific name but we have about 4-5 species that all drop their leaves in the spring. They each drop for about two weeks and each variety drop overlaps another variety so I have about a six week window when there is a constant supply of bagged leaves. I could get thousands of bags but I do have to go to work. LOL

Can you please post a picture of a close up of live stem with leaves?

Darkman · 08-17-2010, 06:38 PM

I can but it will be this weekend before I can.

Richard · 08-17-2010, 11:05 PM

I'm wondering if it will be one of the oaks listed here:

Live oak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Darkman · 08-19-2010, 06:41 AM

Live Oak is definitely the top dog of Oaks around here. I have several. The second is a tall straight trunked oak we call a Water Oak. I believe there are two varieties around here. The least plentiful at least where I live is a scrub oak that doesn't get very big maybe twenty foot on an older specimen. They have very small leaves and extremely contorted limbs. They make a very nice small specimen planting and are mainly found near or on the coast. Inland we have Red Oaks the kind you make fine cabinetry and flooring with but they are a deciduous oak and I don't use them for mulch as their leaves are larger and where I collect there aren't any. The last oak is a Black Jack which is a smaller deciduous oak that has excellent fall color but they have mostly been eliminated from my area since they make a mess with their large leaves when they drop.

I'll post pictures as soon as I can.
Thanks,

08-14-2010, 05:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
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08-19-2010, 06:41 AM	#16 (permalink)
Darkman Dirt Master Darkman's Photo Gallery Location: Pensacola, FL South of I-10 Find me on the map! Zone: 8b/9a Name: Darkman Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,249 BananaBucks : 212,597 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9,263 Times Was Thanked 1,582 Times in 702 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 243 Times	Re: mycorrhizae and mulch relationship? Live Oak is definitely the top dog of Oaks around here. I have several. The second is a tall straight trunked oak we call a Water Oak. I believe there are two varieties around here. The least plentiful at least where I live is a scrub oak that doesn't get very big maybe twenty foot on an older specimen. They have very small leaves and extremely contorted limbs. They make a very nice small specimen planting and are mainly found near or on the coast. Inland we have Red Oaks the kind you make fine cabinetry and flooring with but they are a deciduous oak and I don't use them for mulch as their leaves are larger and where I collect there aren't any. The last oak is a Black Jack which is a smaller deciduous oak that has excellent fall color but they have mostly been eliminated from my area since they make a mess with their large leaves when they drop. I'll post pictures as soon as I can. Thanks, __________________ Darkman in Pensacola AS ALWAYS IMHO AND YOUR MILEAGE MAY DIFFER!!!!!!!! Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong! Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable! Statistics - Data that analyst twist to support the insane opinions of those that pay them.

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