Banana Flower Photo Database

[ngiann]

I am thinking that it would be very helpful, if we can have a dedicated thread or even better a dedicated album in photo gallery with closeup only photos of various named bananas.
And these photo entries must be filtered out to be correct named and with good photo quality.
So, little by little everyone would ID and compare banana types easily.
I also suggest to be sorted alphabetically, and the naming would follow a simple rule e.g. "FHIA-01 Goldfinger","Namwah Dwarf" etc
Just a single good Photo per plant. And if the name turns to be wrong, the entry must be removed.
We must be sure 100% that every photo represents the true banana type.
I know about the valuable webebananas site and our wi-ki, but i think that speaking of ID we must focus on flower only, and thus we must have only different flower photos side by side in order to make comparisons.

As for the photo, allow me to give 1-2 examples of what i mean:
(all example photos are from gallery)

example 1:


example 2:


example 3:

[Gabe15]

Its a good idea and Im not saying it wount work or it shouldn't be attempted, but flowers do not distinguish different cultivars alone. Many are very similar, especially if they are in the same subgroup. The reason they could be different could be because of size (as an example) and flowers would have nothing to do with it. If you would like to create a database, I would reccomend using traits that can be distinguished easily (this may include flowers but does not have to limited to them, foliage can also help identify plants).

Professionally, bananas are characterized by a big list of different things, because flowers alone cannot always tell what cultivar it is.

http://bananas.bioversityinternation...26/53/lang,en/

Bioversity International is constantly working towards improving thier MGIS (Musa Germplasm Information System), they already have passport data with picrures on many different cultivars and are working towards getting pictures and descriptors assigned to each of thier accessions.

Also the Musalogues from Bioversity International (along with the other germplasm catalogs, http://bananas.bioversityinternation...25/54/lang,en/) are wonderful resources that you should look into.

[MediaHound]

It's not a bad idea... at first I thought of the wiki, but I see what you mean by being able to thumb through them all quick and easy.

Here's the new category in the photo gallery to get it going:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=629

[the flying dutchman]

It's not a bad idea at all because in my opinion our board is faster than
Bioversity when it comes to new varieties/cultivars for home-growers.
It is not quite impossible that in the future we have descriptions and Pics of
alot of bananas wich wll not be in their Database.
Ofcourse Gabe is right that not only the flower can identify the banana in many cases but it could give an indication and then further research can be done in the WIKI.

Ron

[MediaHound]

Yes and it can at least help with process of elimination... you could know for sure that a plant in question is not what it was sold to you as.

[Gabe15]

To elaborate on my eariler thoughts, you really need to know a lot more information than just a single close up of the female flowers. That would be like trying to identify a person simply by thier eyes, it may help sometimes but will surely not work everytime. Another problem I forsee is inexperience with floral parts, some people may think the flowers match with a quick side-by-side comparison but further investigation may show small yet important differences.

In my opinion, identifying edible bananas requires lots of detail (because many of them are so similar and of the same origins) and I think it would be unwise to take the approach of indentifying the plant straight to the cultivar because if you mess up on the one and only descriptor, you will get the wrong ID. What I mean by this is that although some bananas can be ID'd right off the bat, when looking at all the varieties we grow, we need to broaden the scope and start with the big picture. There are some very easy descriptors that can be seen, such as erect or pendent bunches, from there you can start to narrow down different distinction between groups. Once you figure out what group it is (whether it be a genome of edible bananas or a subgenera of wild species), you can start to then narrow it down to the specific plant.

For example, say I had a Dwarf Cavendish that I was trying to ID by myself with our system, by looking at the female flowers alone I would get matches for about 5 different varieties if I managed to get the ID right the first time, although I now may have an idea of the type of plant I have, I still wouldn't know its name. But if we take a more detailed approach such as first trying to determine its ploidy level, this is a fairly simple task if you know what to look for and you would find that your plant (the Dwarf Cavendish) is a triploid. From there we have a few options, it could be AAA, AAB or ABB. Again, by looking for the specific descriptors, you could then figure out that the plant you have is a AAA, now you have it narrowed down to the genome. You then look for the descriptors at subgroup level, and you would match your plant to the descriptors for the Cavendish subgroup and you would know that it is a Cavendish of some sorts. Now that you know it is a Cavendish, you would see that your plant is about 5-6ft tall and you could safely assume you have a Dwarf Cavendish.

If this all seems very tedious and confusing, it is. But this is the same problem banana scientists have been working on for over a hundred years, how to classify and distinguish edible bananas (and for us, we would also need to incorporate wild species and hybrid seeded varieties into the mix because we are hobby growers). I'm not trying to bring down anyones ideas or anything, Im just trying to inform you what has already been done, and what methods have proven to work.

[ngiann]

Thanks for your responses and very detailed explanations.
(the 2 pdf's that Gabe gave, especially the 2nd ,are very informative)
I can understand the difficulty of ID'ing a banana tree, and of course i don't expect to do it by just looking at a photo (which anyway may be confusing enough: photo by photo is different, leaving apart different conditions of light, distance, camera quality etc at shot time).
But if for example all genuine FHIA-01's have the same exact flower, i still want to have a good photo of it for refference and examination.
For example the first photo at my post (it is the photo of Jarred's contest) tells me that i don't have a Goldfinger because none of my flowers gets even close to be the same!
Personaly i find it very difficult to see big differences by just looking bananas of same size, and i want to try flowers. Ok, i can see the difference between my D.Red , SH-3008 and the others, its obvious.
Of course for some bananas, another sure way of ID'ing i think it must be the fruit itself: Pitogo, Rhinohorn, Praying Hands, Red, Blue Burmese etc i understand that must be easy to distinguish.
How about fruit taste? Is it a criterion of ID'ing? If yes, then we can ID Ice Cream, Manzano and others (this safely can be a blind test )

[the flying dutchman]

As Jarred says, the photos can be helpful in the elimination process.
Nevertheless you will always want one or more of the specialists on this forum to confirm the ID you think it is. at least if you want to be sure.
I think taste is very personal, not a scientific way for identification.

Ron

[Gabe15]

I think a simple easy database could work, but it needs more pictures per plant. These do not have to be complicated, something as simple as bract color can easily help you identify plants, and if you can get pictures of the female flowers, why not add pictures of a few other descriptors such as male
bud shape, peduncle color, bunch orientation....many of these could even be combined into single photos.

If I were to make up a simple key to identifying bananas, it might go something like this.

1. a. bunches erect, go to 2.
b. bunches pendent or horizontal, go to 3.

2. a. bracts polished, go to 4.
b. bracts not polished, go to 5.
c. persistant yellow bracts, hairy green fruit...Musella lasiocarpa

3. a. seed in fruit, go to 6.
b. seedless fruit, go to 9.

4. YOU HAVE A CALLIMUSA. (have pictures of each species you can buy)
a. persistant red bracts with yellow tips...Musa coccinea
b. non-persistant red bracts with yellow tips, green fruit...Musa beccarii

5. YOU HAVE A RHODOCHLAMYS. (more pictures of each for reference)
a. green fruit, orange/pink bracts with yellow tips...Musa laterita
b. green fruit, pink/purple bracts...Musa ornata
c. green fruit, yellow/cream bracts...Musa siamensis
d. pink fuzzy fruit, pink bracts...Musa velutina
e. there are lots of these... so im stopping here

6. a. suckers at base, go to 7.
b. no suckers produced, go to 8.

7. YOU HAVE A WILD EUMUSA.
a. green/yellow bracts, wings on petiole...Musa basjoo
b. bracts purple on outside, red on inside, rounded leaf bases...Musa balbisiana
c. leaves red underneath, red stripes on top, green fruit...Musa acuminata subsp. zebrina
d. leaves red underneath, red stripes on top, red fruit...Musa acuminata subsp. sumatrana
e. purple bracts, green fruit, large smooth black seeds...Musa sikkimensis

8. YOU HAVE AN ENSETE.
a. waxy green plant, green bracts...Ensete glaucum
b. waxy green plant, purple bracts...Ensete superbum
c. waxless green plant with red midribs, red bracts...Ensete ventricosum
d. waxless red plants with green margins, red bracts...Ensete ventricosum 'Maurelii'

9. YOU HAVE AN EDIBLE EUMUSA
a. rounded leaf bases....go to 10.
b. non rounded leaf bases.... go to 11.

10. YOU HAVE AN ABB.
a. big ass plant (20-30ft), rounded male bud, plump angled fruit...Musa 'Saba'
b. large plant (10-15ft), bluish green angled fruit...Musa 'Ice Cream'
c. medium sized plant (10-12ft), few hands of green strongly angled fruit... Musa 'Orinoco'
d. small plant (4-6ft), few hands of green strongly angled fruit...Musa 'Dwarf Orinoco'
c. fused fingers...Musa 'Praying Hands'

11. okay, im going to stop now

[pitangadiego]

This is one of the main points behind my pix at http://webebananas.com - All the pix labeled (910) are taken from my own plants, and posted according to the name on the plant when I received it. So I know what each of them is supposed top be, but that doesn't solve the problem, in some cases, of whether they were correctly labeled when I received them. Who actually knows for sure that they have a true Williams, or Dwarf Cavendish, or ? Praying Hands is pretty much a no brainer, and a red banana clearly isn't a Cavendish. Ebun Musak was pretty well confirmed when the fruit ripened without much color change (stayed green). So the problem comes in verifying your baseline banana. Also, the more I look at "red" bananas, such as Rose, Dwarf Red, Tall Red, DJR, Kru, etc, their male flowers all look identical to me. So I pretty much know it is a red banana by the flower, but not which one. I expected each one to be more unique.

I have a Gran Nain (so labeled) which grew way too tall. So it clearly wasn't GN, but until I had fruit I had no idea what it might be. Turns out to be a Misi Luki - which wasn't a bad substitute to have.

[Randy4ut]

Just my 2 cents worth on this subject, coming from a novice nanner lover...
I am also a big fan of palms and have found that in one of my palm books entitled, "Betrock's Cold Hardy Palms", author Alan Meerow has a key to identifing palms that is almost exactly like the example Gabe has posted above... I have found that this key has helped me many times in id'ing many unknown palms... Living where I do, and not being an expert on bananas, I sure hope bananas.org can and will set up some sort of key to help us better id bananas, and not just by flower alone... Any distinguishing features that would help a novice like myself would be invaluable... Right now, the only way I can get a positive id is to post a pic and that is not always convenient... Like I said, this is just my humble opinion... Thanks to all you nanner experts, I have already learned alot and hope to learn much more in the future...

[MediaHound]

Originally Posted by Gabe15

I think a simple easy database could work, but it needs more pictures per plant. These do not have to be complicated, something as simple as bract color can easily help you identify plants, and if you can get pictures of the female flowers, why not add pictures of a few other descriptors such as male
bud shape, peduncle color, bunch orientation....many of these could even be combined into single photos.

If I were to make up a simple key to identifying bananas, it might go something like this.

1. a. bunches erect, go to 2.
b. bunches pendent or horizontal, go to 3.

2. a. bracts polished, go to 4.
b. bracts not polished, go to 5.
c. persistant yellow bracts, hairy green fruit...Musella lasiocarpa

3. a. seed in fruit, go to 6.
b. seedless fruit, go to 9.

4. YOU HAVE A CALLIMUSA. (have pictures of each species you can buy)
a. persistant red bracts with yellow tips...Musa coccinea
b. non-persistant red bracts with yellow tips, green fruit...Musa beccarii

5. YOU HAVE A RHODOCHLAMYS. (more pictures of each for reference)
a. green fruit, orange/pink bracts with yellow tips...Musa laterita
b. green fruit, pink/purple bracts...Musa ornata
c. green fruit, yellow/cream bracts...Musa siamensis
d. pink fuzzy fruit, pink bracts...Musa velutina
e. there are lots of these... so im stopping here

6. a. suckers at base, go to 7.
b. no suckers produced, go to 8.

7. YOU HAVE A WILD EUMUSA.
a. green/yellow bracts, wings on petiole...Musa basjoo
b. bracts purple on outside, red on inside, rounded leaf bases...Musa balbisiana
c. leaves red underneath, red stripes on top, green fruit...Musa acuminata subsp. zebrina
d. leaves red underneath, red stripes on top, red fruit...Musa acuminata subsp. sumatrana
e. purple bracts, green fruit, large smooth black seeds...Musa sikkimensis

8. YOU HAVE AN ENSETE.
a. waxy green plant, green bracts...Ensete glaucum
b. waxy green plant, purple bracts...Ensete superbum
c. waxless green plant with red midribs, red bracts...Ensete ventricosum
d. waxless red plants with green margins, red bracts...Ensete ventricosum 'Maurelii'

9. YOU HAVE AN EDIBLE EUMUSA
a. rounded leaf bases....go to 10.
b. non rounded leaf bases.... go to 11.

10. YOU HAVE AN ABB.
a. big ass plant (20-30ft), rounded male bud, plump angled fruit...Musa 'Saba'
b. large plant (10-15ft), bluish green angled fruit...Musa 'Ice Cream'
c. medium sized plant (10-12ft), few hands of green strongly angled fruit... Musa 'Orinoco'
d. small plant (4-6ft), few hands of green strongly angled fruit...Musa 'Dwarf Orinoco'
c. fused fingers...Musa 'Praying Hands'

11. okay, im going to stop now

Niiiice!!

We're setting up a page in the wiki to show this step by step guide to identifying a banana.

We could name it

/wiki/Info:Identifying_Bananas

or
/wiki/Info:Identifying

or
/wiki/Info:Identification

Which looks best?
Anyone care to chime in on what the page should be called?

[Randy4ut]

Hey Great!!!!
How about "NANNER NAMING 101"!!! Just kidding, I kinda like Identifying Bananas, or "Key to banana identification"... I truly think this will be a great addition and helpful to many of us, novices... Thanks Jared, Gabe and especially ngiann, for the idea in the first place...

[Gabe15]

Originally Posted by MediaHound

Niiiice!!

We're setting up a page in the wiki to show this step by step guide to identifying a banana.

We could name it

/wiki/Info:Identifying_Bananas

or
/wiki/Info:Identifying

or
/wiki/Info:Identification

Which looks best?
Anyone care to chime in on what the page should be called?

I don't care what you call it but I don't think I will ever be able to finish that key! But if anyone wants to add to it, modify it, do whatever they want to it, go for it!

[the flying dutchman]

After counting all the votes the winner is .....

http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Info:Identifying_Bananas



Ron

[Kabby]

10. YOU HAVE AN ABB.
a. big ass plant (20-30ft), rounded male bud, plump angled fruit...Musa 'Saba'

Note to self: Don't read anything Gabe has to say while at work especially in the middle of the night. I just burst out laughing and inhaled Dr. Pepper up my nose at the same time!

[Jack Daw]

Great thread! Live again!

[sunfish]

Bump