Matt Turner

Hi,
Caught the banana bug about 2 years ago. At first the cure seemed to be to find all the varieties I can grow here outdoors (I don't have a greenhouse). But it got worse: I am now seriously thinking of setting up a nursery, specializing in ornamental and cold hardy bananas. If I get enough money I'll set up a branch in the Ryukyu islands and offer edible cultivars too. I have found some land for sale near here. 2.5 hectares of land as an abandoned farm, covered in bamboo and forest. Cheap enough for me to buy. Am I crazy to consider this? Opinions/advice very welcome!

Also, I have several thousand genuine ito-basho seeds - the Japanese fibre banana, as in Musa balbisiana and not M.basjoo - which I personally collected in Amami Oshima in the Ryukyu Islands. Would be keen to swap some of it for something interesting. Unfortunately I cannot import banana plants (seed is OK) from the US because of quarantine restrictions, but would be interested in buying-swapping from members in other parts of the world.

Don't know much about forums, posting, polls, trackbacks, threads, parsing and all that, so will have to learn as I go along. (I hope I'm doing right in starting a new thread for this introduction!)

griphuz

Hi Matt, and welcome!
Those ito-basho plants should be relatively hardy to cold comming from the Ryukyu Islands right?
Kind regards,
Remko.

marenmar

Hi Matt,

Welcome! Setting up a nursery sounds like a dream to me..but i'm not a specialist in economics!

You're a specialist in Balbisia seeds? I bought some seeds on the internet with the description: Scientific Name:Musa balbisiana. Common name:Basho banana, grown in the Ryukyu Islands of Japan for the production of banana fiber textiles (basho cloth). Sounds familiar... maybe you can help me identifying my seeds..they are in my avatar (can send a larger picture). Do the seeds look like the ones you have? I also added a photo of my first sprout

Does anyone know the difference between the Balbisiana and Balbisiana Basho (I didn't)

Thank you Matt, and enjoy the forum!

Bob

Welcome Matt, sounds like a dream come true to me! I've always been interested in Japanese culture and food etc. I wish I had something in offer to trade for seeds but unfortunately don't. Let me know if some go up for sale.
It takes only a short time to explore the site. Check out the dark blue line at the top of the page. You can search for specific information using the "search" or "wiki". "New posts" is all the current gab and so on. Looking forward to hearing more about what you're doing there.

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lorax

Welcome aboard, Matt! Do you make Basho yourself, or are you thinking of selling the fibre?

Matt Turner

Thanks very much for the warm welcome and the comments! To answer the questions (do I do that here? and what's the "Thanks" button for?),

Griphuz, I'm not sure about the cold hardiness of the ito basho, but being balbisiana I guess it's pretty tough. Japan often has a cold, snowy image, but many do not realize that the summers are very hot and humid throughout most of Japan. The Ryukyu Islands are distinguished from the mainland by being completely frost free. The lowest winter temperature is 14-15 degrees celsius. Where I live we generally get just one or two frosts, though some years there might be a snowfall in the hills! (it soon melts though). I have collected ito-basho seed as far north as Yakushima Island, and in this area of southern Kyushu a plant that looks EXACTLY like the ito-basho, but with seedless fruit, is commonly grown. So to answer the question, not as cold-hardy as the basho (M.basjoo), but probably as tough as any other banana.

Marenmar, your seeds look the right colour and shape. The hilum on my seeds is not so pale, but that might be to do with the way the seeds are cleaned (I haven't cleaned mine). "Basho" just means "banana" in Japanese, so technically speaking it would not be wrong to call any species or cultivar of Musa a basho. The Japanese weren't too particular about distinguishing between species, because Musa are not native to Japan. "Ito" means thread, so the ito-basho is just the "thread banana". (and "Hana-basho" is a flower banana, an ornamental species). In modern scientific terms however, the term basho is now associated specifically with Musa basjoo, brought to mainland Japan from China in historical times as an ornamental. In the Ryukyu islands they used Musa balbisiana, which probably came from the Philippines or maybe China, for its strong fibre. It is now naturalized in the islands. I haven't seen M.basjoo in the Ryukyus, it might be there but would not have been important. There seems to be quite a bit of variation in M.balbisiana. The ito-basho is not so tall as many of the other variants are, and its fruit bunches are small. I was going to add a photo here, but it says not to do that - I'll add some to my gallery when I get time.

Westerners did not (still don't) appreciate the vagueness of the term "basho", and this is probably how the erroneous idea that Musa basjoo is used to make cloth arose. Japanese on the mainland could have pointed to an M.basjoo and said "basho [i.e. 'bananas'] are used in the Ryukyus to make fibre", and the scientist/plant-explorer foreigner could have interpreted this to mean that that particular species was used in this way. It is as if I pointed to a beech tree, saying that "wood from trees is used to make ships" and being interpreted as meaning beech-tree wood (only) is used for ship building. The name choice for Musa basjoo is thus also unfortunate - it is like giving the White Oak the scientific name Quercus oak. As you all know, M.basjoo is still often sold as the Japanese fibre banana.

Bob, I'll investigate how to use the classifieds, and I'll post some seeds up for sale-swap soon. I'll distribute them in lots of 100 I think, since Musa are so difficult to germinate.

Lorax, making basho-fu ("banana cloth") is enormously time-consuming and very technical. I spent the best part of a day with an old lady in an Okinoerabu island workshop having it explained to me. It is still hand woven on wooden looms. Nowadays it is prohibitively expensive. The most famous, large-scale factory is in northern Okinawa, but small workshops exist on many other islands. More modern production methods also exist (e.g. on Amami Oshima), usually adulterating the fibre with some other fibre. Each part of the banana pseudostem cross-section has a special name, and the thread from each part varies in its characteristics.

lorax

I ask because I produce Abaca and other fine banana cloth (although not basho-fu) on an artesanal scale myself. I understand the process and how long it takes from harvest through ret, comb, sort, spin, and hand-weave. I'd never trust my fibre to an automated loom; it bruises too easily in that sort of handling unless it's cut with cotton or linen.

The very finest fiber I've been able to extract comes from the midribs of the leaves of my plantains, and it compares favourably to silk. The coarsest stuff, from my M. textilis, is only good for rope, and the finer stuff for garments. I've made cloth from basjoo as well, but I actually prefer the pseudostems of regular old garden-variety cavendish - the staple is longer.

Michael_Andrew

So are the seeds you collected Musa ryukyuensis? When I googled Ito-Basho I found this document:
BANANAS FOR FIBER AND FOOD: TWO TYPES OF BANANA LINKING JAPAN WITH OTHER PARTS OF ASIA

thanks,

Michael

Matt Turner

Lorax, Wow! I admire your commitment! Basho-fu is beautiful stuff, and I wish I could make it. But the expense, time and skill necessary all seem a bit overwhelming to me. In Japan this art was only recently revived, but it may well die out again, since very few younger people are interested in it (the people who revived it are in their 80s and 90s). I would love to have clothes made out of basho-fu. It reminds me a lot of hemp. The best pair of jeans I ever had was made out of hemp. In Japan they die the strands before weaving, so the patterns are rather simple. They use the cloth here to make kimono and luxury goods such as handbags, hats etc. I said to the lady in Okinoerabu that a pair of jeans made out of basho-fu would be really comfortable, but I think I offended her by suggesting that! I was surprised to hear that you can make good fibre out of cavendish and M.basjoo. Perhaps some mainland Japanese did also try doing that with M.basjoo - in which case it would not be totally incorrect to say that M.basjoo is a Japanese fibre banana after all!! ("a" rather than "the" though!).

Michael, that article you refer to is inaccurate in many places. For a start the Ryukyus do not stop at Okinawa, a large part of them belong to Kagoshima. There are not two "kinds" of bananas in Japan now or historically - there are at least three (for food, for fibre, and for ornamental use), and arguably more (wind break, hedgerow, etc). "Shima banana" is generally used to refer to a specific cultivar that was introduced from Hawaii via the Ogasawara islands 100 years or more ago. Some people (such as this writer) use shima banana (= "island banana") to refer to any banana grown on the southern islands, which is a rather meaningless usage. Musa ryukyuensis is a misspelling of Musa liukiuensis, which is a synonym for M. balbisiana (see Musa home, scroll right down the page. This website is where I go to to sort out names!)

lorax

It all depends on the part of the plant one uses, and what one is using the fibre for. Cavendish, for example, only produces worthwhile fibre towards the core of the stem. Basjoo is only good for coarse things like canvas, and the texture of it makes it undesirable for garments (but excellent for things like sailcloth and burlap tarpaulin). It isn't so expensive for me, largely because I had a loom to begin with, and a wheel wasn't too hard to come by in a country that still spins most of its fibre by hand. It's mostly the headache of the retting process that makes it a little-used fibre here.

I generally leave my fibre its native colour or dye using indigo or cochineal, and I'm starting to get into Ikat weaving, which is really time consuming but I can sell the cloth for triple a natural tone.

Bananaman88

Beth, for most of us mere mortals there are only 24 hours in a day. How many hours are there in your day??? You never cease to amaze me with things you are into and have time to do. I'm quite the slacker by comparison.

marenmar

Thanks for your extensive reply! I just created a new post in the species section, maybe someone else recognises the seeds as a certain species. I did not 'clean' the seeds (did a little of photoshopping) but they are wet. The original picture is in my gallery. I'll love to see your pictures of the Ito Basho. It is possible to add pictures along with your post. Just first go to the photo gallery - your gallery and put them in your photo gallery. Then copy the link (the one with the <><>) in the writing area of any post.

Good luck, it will be nice to get more banana news from Japan. Btw, since when did you came to live there? Will you stay for a couple of years,....forever???

lorax

24, same as you. The difference is that I'm an insomniac with a low boredom threshhold. I multitask. While the banana fibre is retting, for example, I'm starting the lye bath for the rest of the fibre to make paper, I'm spinning from the previous rett, and/or I'm weaving or knitting from previous spun fibre. Along with that I'm tending my garden (weeding and suchwhat), I'm talking to you guys, I'm writing a website, and on and on and so forth. I take about 3-4 hours of sleep a night when I'm bored, and 2-3 when I'm really active or busy.

NotherNana

Hi Matt,
I'm new to the boards too. Lots of nice people, and plenty of information.
Gino

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Matt Turner

Just to say that I have posted some pictures of the ito basho in the wild (i.e. as a naturalized species). Most of the pictures are from a very large colony in the north, but isolated clumps appear throughout the island. The one of the green leaves in the sunshine is from such a clump in the forest. I tried to take a picture of the seeds for you Marenmar, but didn't do a very good job. To answer your question, I've lived in Japan on and off for about 15 years now, and plan to stay forever!

I've just remembered that I've got a few photos of the basho-fu workshop in Okinoerabu island. If you're interested Lorax, I'll upload them for you in the next couple of days. (I too wish I had your ability to do so many things - I generally get about 10% of what I intend to do done!).

NotherNana

Lorax,
i had no idea.
Are you making paper? Or mats, etc? I am artist, so make paper mulch too. What is your process? I make my own paper so my art has no acidity and therefore archival paper. You use banana fiber...i have never tried this. We should start new storyline about making paper so as not to hijack matt's story here
Gino

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lorax

There's actually a thread on it, Gino; I've bumped it so we can continue the discussion.

Michael_Andrew

I may have to take lessons from you Matt. I'm probably around 2%.

Michael

alpha010

Welcome to the org Matt! Look guys, a Tog of Japan! Don't mind me, I'm the Tog of my Xbox 360.....If I cut out 4 hours of sleep, 2 hours of eating (I eat a friggin lot), 1 hour of xbox and 1 hour of drum rudiments each day, I might be able to accomplish in a day what Beth can do in 1 hour.....darn you insomniacs, I need my beauty sleep!! (if you saw a pic of me you'd agree that I need it)

Shaggy

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LOL! My house doesnt exist on the member map!


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