momoese

Well when it's ready I'll send you some.

Bananaman88

Why the heck does positive banana identification have to be so darned complex and confusing???

sunfish

Can we get positive ID'S from male flowers

Richard

I'll take that as a "no".

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Gabe15

Great question Brent! Very simple, but for the fun of learning I'll make it a complex answer (or it may seem simple to people...read on and find out!). Also I'm working on a "composition"....if you will....that will make use of these long thought out answers from my head, so its actually productive for me to write these down.

If you don't want to dive into the swamp world of bananas, skip to the bottom!

The key here is get a grasp of the immense diversity of bananas and how it is organized, and then to accept that you will not know about all of them. For every variety common to hobby growers, there are countless other closely related varieties that form what banana scientists refer to as the "subgroup". Sometimes, ID'ing past the subgroup is difficult or impossible, because often the same exact clones are present in different areas with different names, or were originally the same, but new mutations have been selected off of it. DNA analysis can help, but depending on many things, it does not inherently see the whole picture, and there are certainly things that it cannot pick up on right now. In short, there exists cases of the same plant with different names, and different plants with the same name. There is no way to officially designate a single name to a specific clone, because this would 1.) require way more time and resources than anyone has and 2.) be nearly impossible for people in one region to change the names of their local cultivars because some scientist said they should.

The solution is that bananas are grouped together into more or less structured subgroups which theoretically contain only cultivars which are all mutations from a single original cultivar (though in practice this is not fully realized yet). If you can ID a banana to the subgroup, that is excellent. You can know a lot about the genetics and general characteristics of the plant you have. For banana breeders (and some botanic gardens) who maintain large collections covering a huge amount of diversity, the original name of the plant as it was acquired is kept and used, along with the subgroup and some other institutional code to indicate that exact accession. You may grow out two plants which are supposed to be the same and they turn out slightly or very different, or you may grow out two plants that are supposed to be different and they look the same, but one may have some unique trait lacking in the other. Instead of making up new names right away, the only practical way to keep them ordered is to just know all you can about your plants. Then, if you see enough other plants that look the same as yours, or enough plants with the same name that are clearly different, then its probably safe to be able to switch the names with little consequence.

For example (this is a real case): I have a plant which was acquired as an AB 'Ney Poovan' but flow cytometry says is an AAB. Safet Velchi (aka Ney Poovan) is a very well known subgroup, and it is known that this subgroup is AB. I have another plant, 'Kunnan', which is supposed to be in the Ney Poovan subgroup, and it is indeed an AB and matches up well with other accounts of Ney Poovan varieties. My 'Kunnan' and my 'Ney Poovan' looking nothing alike, but I trust Ney Poovan cultivars should be like my 'Kunnan'. My 'Ney Poovan' I notice, actually looks exactly like every Pisang Awak (aka Namwah) banana I have seen, but with some unique traits that I have not observed in other Pisang Awak. However, the flow cytometry says its an AAB, whereas Namwah are well documented ABB. There's a bit of a problem here you see, I have a plant which I now am certain is not a Ney Poovan, looks like a Pisang Awak, but DNA says is something else. I threw out the possibility that it is an AB or Safet Velchi subgroup member, I have 3 points against that (flow cytometry, a 2 references of known cultivars), and I've seen enough verified Pisang Awak to feel comfortable in placing it within that group even though the flow cytometry says otherwise (which could be due to a number of things), but I'm still stuck with the 'Ney Poovan' name. I traced this plant back to where it came from, and found out that there was some mixup or mistake when it was collected, and they don't even know what it is. This plant though, unlike other Pisang Awak I've had, has a uniquely textured fruit which is very rubbery, so I am also sure that it is not the same clone as other known Pisang Awak varieties I have worked with. What did I do after all of this work? I renamed it thanks to the help of members here! I'm now calling it 'Gumby Awak' for my personal use. If I gave it for use in future project, I would let them know all of the info I know about it, including the original name, but let them know it is wrong and misleading.

As you can see, these cases can get quite sticky and complex, and thats even with plants that I had some decent reliable background information on. Imagine going through this with plants you know very little, or nothing about. Its going to be difficult and most likely not completely resolved.

This is inherent to working with biological systems and the endless and imperfect strive to order them in a manner convenient to us. It is possible to make some systematic order to it (in the case of bananas, this is the subgroup system), but we must always remember that plants are dynamic and taxonomy strives to be static, and when these two systems meet, there will always be complexity, confusion and loose ends. There is no definitive database of all known banana varieties with every detail about them and how to ID them, some are trying to create that, and it can be a very useful resource, but it will always fall short of what's actually out there because there is simply so much diversity.

For the banana grower, we need to make sure we keep notes on our plants, where they came from and anything else known about it when it is acquired, and pay close attention to how they grow and develop, and most importantly, to compare them to other varieties so we can see the differences and similarities for ourselves. If its a plant worth keeping and you know why, then thats great, and if its not worth keeping and you know why, then thats great too, and thats really all that matters much in the end.

Male flowers can help, but only to certain a extent, and they are not necessarily more distinguishing than any other part of the plant. For phenotypic IDing, the whole plant needs to be considered, including its growth habit.


Everyone who I have talked to from Samoa made it clear that the 'Misi Luki' there is a Mysore. There may be another variety there that is also called 'Misi Luki' or a 'Misi Luki'-like name, but thats why I was curious about what your source is so I can better track down what plant they are referring to.

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Bananaman88

Thanks for the insight, Gabe. Just the other day I was thinking exactly what you said, that there are some we will just never have a positive ID on. All of the mutations, sports, and selections that have taken place over the years, coupled with the fact that one plant can have more than one name depending on what region it's in, not to mention simply labing mix-ups at nurseries all conspire to make this a very confusing field.

I will keep you all posted on the development of my so-called 'Misi Luki', even though I think we can all agree that isn't what it is at all. Hopefully it will flower later this year or next and we can all take a look at the photos.

sunfish

I found this, Musa sapientum - Misi Luki

Bananaman88

Here is a good link that helps further explain the complexities of banana nomenclature:
Trouble in paradise

DaveE

Clare,

From what I understand there are two plants called Misi Luki. One is the original Misi Luki that is in the Mysore group and displays similar characteristics. The other plant commonly sold as Misi Luki by many US dealers is very similar to Namwah or is a form of Namwah. I have nine of the Namwah type that came from Agri-starts. I bet that yours is the Namwah type if it indeed is Misi Luki.

Dave

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harveyc

Clare, it sounds to me that Dave has 9 of the same type and he believes they're probably the same type as you've got. Don't want your head to go flying off!

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Richard

Here's my young Misi Luki plant from Agristarts on an overcast day here in San Diego. The lowest leaf on the right emerges from the pseudo stem at 5 feet, and the upper crotch of the tree where the next leaf is emerging is at 10 feet.

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Nicolas Naranja

Hmm...now I've got a mystery on my hands. I bought a tray of Misi Luki and a Tray of Dwarf Namwah on the same day from agristarts, and now I am wondering if I am the one that is mixed up. Are agristarts Misi Lukis supposed to be about 12' tall? Even so that doesn't explain some of the other agristarts mix-ups. I own a bunch of burro bananas that were supposed to be nam wahs...

I am definitely the one that is mixed up looking at webebananas, I have had my plants mislabeled for 18 months.

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Richard

This morning my Misi Luki is displaying a flag leaf. The p-stem height (base of flag leaf) is 10-ft 8-in, or 3.25 meters. This Misi Luki cultivar is from a tray of Misi Luki TC's I purchased from Agri-Starts.

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sunfish

venturabananas

Congrats Richard. Perhaps you can plan your Thanksgiving or Christmas menus around you misi luki fruits!

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Richard

I was hoping for Halloween ...

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momoese

Congrats on your Namwah flag leaf!

venturabananas

It may be a Pisang Awak cultivar, but the non-Mysore "Misi Luki" doesn't taste like Namwah to me.

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momoese

So what does it taste like?

venturabananas

Well Mitchel, you've had them, so you know better than I do -- I've only had a few that Jon shared with me. I remember them having a more complex, fruity flavor than the tall and dwarf namwahs I've had. Jon's description is "very creamy banana with a light apple-cider overtone and finish". Which I have to admit, is not very different from how I'd describe namwah. I think you'd have to grow tall Namwah next to the Pisang Awak "Misi Luki" to figure out if there is really any difference between the two. Jon grows "Misi Luki" and dwarf Namwah. He could chime in on whether the flavors are different at all.

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