What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die?

siege2050 · 12-09-2014, 05:14 AM

Due to some heating issues with my greenhouse, I have a bedroom full of plants, including 10 musa basjoo with 1 1/2 feet, to 4 of pstem. I am thinking about putting them in the greenhouse, as right now we are having nights that range around 31 degrees to 45. What temperature would kill the leaves off the potted pups, how far can it go below 32 without leaf burn as long as there is no actual frost on the leaves?

jbyrd88888 · 12-09-2014, 05:35 PM

From what I remember last years attempt... As soon as I achieved 34 for 6-8hrs (accidently

)randomly banana leafs got nuked... Basjoo didn't like but bounced back. My GH got down freezing maybe 2-3 time last year. Basjoo the only survivor...

Olafhenny · 12-09-2014, 07:53 PM

Basjoo: No frost - no die! The leaves may even survive quite nicely a short dip
below 32^F. The rest is dependent on thickness and duration. I leave my Basjoo
usually unprotected until there is serious damage to the leaves and that takes
often several nights when the temperature goes down to about 25^F. It all depends
on the duration. I would not give any guarantees, if the temperature remained for
8 hours or longer at 28 to 30^F. The cold needs time to penetrate to the sap to
crystallize it, to break the cells from the inside. If a few short frost periods of 25^F
were all, you would lose a few leaves and the PS would just produce new ones,
because the frost had not enough time to penetrate into it and the plant would carry
on.

That is it for basjoo! I have no experiences, with other bananas. Several tropical
plants die at temperatures above freezing, if they are exposed to them for a while,
because their sap gels and the internal infrastructure can no longer function. Some
bananas may well belong into that category.

As far as basjoos are concerned, a tempory minor drop below 32^F due to heating
failure is nothing to worry about, even if you should lose a few leaves.

Good Luck,
Olaf

scottu · 12-09-2014, 08:40 PM

Without controlled conditions there is no way to be sure. The amount of time at a colder temp decides it's internal temp. I think that is the question, can basjoo survive an internal temp of below freezing?
Anyone got the resources to find out?
I just figure if the temps are going below freezing for more than a morning cold snap, do something to protect it from 32f or less or else.

siege2050 · 12-09-2014, 09:39 PM

I may leave a basjoo in there all winter to experiment. I have a canna Tuerckheimii (Big darn Canna, first year seedling approaching 10 feet, with nearly 3 foot long leaves) out there and it has surprised me with only partial leaf burn even down into the mid 20's outside. I would not think Tuerckheimii could handle cold being from a place like Belize. Freezing cold without frost is definitely different.

Olafhenny · 12-09-2014, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottu

Without controlled conditions there is no way to be sure. The amount of time at a colder temp decides it's internal temp. I think that is the question...

Once the freezing temperature enters a cell of the plant, that cell is kaput at least
in most tropical plants. However it takes a combination of low temperature and time
for that to happen. And it takes longer and more intensive cold for that to happen in
the petioles and even more in the more massive PS, than in the outer edges of the
leaves.

Olafhenny · 12-09-2014, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siege2050

I may leave a basjoo in there all winter to experiment. I have a canna Tuerckheimii (Big darn Canna, first year seedling approaching 10 feet, with nearly 3 foot long leaves) out there and it has surprised me with only partial leaf burn even down into the mid 20's outside. I would not think Tuerckheimii could handle cold being from a place like Belize. Freezing cold without frost is definitely different.

The basjoo is rated for HZ5, but that does only mean the corm and depends how
deeply it had been planted. I can assure you, that all above ground will freeze off in
your HZ. However the corm will most likely survive, unless it has been planted very
shallow.

It is always worthwhile to do your own research. I believe it was in Dave's Plant
Files, where 'rhizinus communis New Zealand' (New Zealand castor bean) was rated
at -12^C, but after a night of -8^C all leaves had turned to mush.

Last winter I gave a neighbour a quat and an oleander together with a min/max
thermometer to keep in his unheated sun room. The coldest temperature reached
was -8^C (18^F). As expected the oleander succumbed and the quat (rated at -10^C)
survived. I was away that winter, and I could not expect my neighbour to monitor
the temperatures closely, thus I do not know, what the oleander survived and at what
temperature it blew the gasket.

siege2050 · 12-09-2014, 11:07 PM

I am a bit scared of castor bean lol, its a awesome looking plant too. Trying to find a tetrapanax as a substitute.

Olafhenny · 12-09-2014, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siege2050

I am a bit scared of castor bean lol, its a awesome looking plant too. Trying to find a tetrapanax as a substitute.

Awesome is the word. One of this years edition grew from a tiny seed in mid March
to a monster 11½ feet high in November, when I cut it down. The leaves were up
to 25 inches across, tip to tip.

But that is not the one, I am most proud of. To me the most noble and pure New
Zealand castor is the one with the darkest leaves. For that I sew at least ten for
each plant I want to keep, let them grow until the first set of secondary leaves is
well developed and then select the best colour. The colour of the primary leaves is
no indication of the plant's.

siege2050 · 12-09-2014, 11:37 PM

I have thought about growing it several times, but just growing datura worries me lol. I wish they could breed it for a lower toxicity. I am not clear if its just the beans, or the whole plant. A lot of plants in the garden are toxic though, I have a melianthus major, and I never even think about it being poison for some reason.

Olafhenny · 12-10-2014, 01:33 AM

Rhododendrons, azaleas, oleander and I believe most broad leaf evergreens in cooler
regions are poisonous. They need that, because in winter they are the only green
stuff around and would be decimated if they did not have this defence.

However with castor beans it is a different story they live in the lush tropics, where
most plants are green throughout the year. I am not sure why they need that
defence. The problem is, that especially in the basic green leaved variety the red
seed pods are very attractive to small children and you know, what toddlers do when
they like something that fit into their mouths. The seed pods of the New Zealand
are less enticing in their dark colour, but you still have to be concerned if there
are preschoolers around.

PS: I am just reading the book "A Fighting Chance" by Elizabeth Warren, the
Oklahoma born Senator for Massachusetts; - quite a lady. She would make a fine
President.

cincinnana · 12-10-2014, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottu

Without controlled conditions there is no way to be sure. The amount of time at a colder temp decides it's internal temp. I think that is the question, can basjoo survive an internal temp of below freezing?
Anyone got the resources to find out?
I just figure if the temps are going below freezing for more than a morning cold snap, do something to protect it from 32f or less or else.

For myself temps have to be freezing for a couple of days for complete plant kill and a nice frost with 28F is a sure bet all all is lost to ground level.

Here is a fun experiment that any of us can do and the outcome will be the same.

This just demonstrates what a banana plant cell does when it freeze, remember banana plants contain lot of water.

You may even wrap the experiment in your warmest insulation hat,coat, glove.....the outcome will be the same.
Take a can of soda ,beer, monster and wrap it up real good in the best insulation and put in your freezer for a day or so.
For even more fun forgo the freezer and put the can on the dashboard of your automobile outside in freezing temps.
These will be real life temps that a plant will encounter in zones 4-7.
Remember cold freezes from the outside in.
Now for a moment lets envision that the can is an internal basjoo cell.

Will it explode?
What happens to things when they explode?
How many hours does it take to explode?

These links might be helpful and you might gets some ideas for an alternate way to grow these plants.

Hibernating a basjoo #1

Hibernating a basjoo#2
.
Frost - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Snarkie · 02-22-2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siege2050

I have thought about growing it several times, but just growing datura worries me lol. I wish they could breed it for a lower toxicity. I am not clear if its just the beans, or the whole plant. A lot of plants in the garden are toxic though, I have a melianthus major, and I never even think about it being poison for some reason.

The leaves may contain poison as well, but it is the beans that are refined to make Ricin. Just don't use 'em to make coffee!

<------ Juan Veldez...

Richard · 02-22-2015, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siege2050

... What temperature would kill the leaves off the potted pups, how far can it go below 32 without leaf burn as long as there is no actual frost on the leaves?

"frost" has less to do with temperature than it does with heat conduction. The phenomena of "frost" is due to moisture condensation on a substance that transports heat away from the water, causing it to freeze. It can occur at air temperatures below 42 F, but more practically below 40 F. In particular, you can have "frost" formation on plants (e.g., lawns) whose tissues are in the upper 30's (F).

With regard to Basjoo, the underground corm is very hardy. Users here repeatedly report that their Basjoo leaves freeze off during winter but the corm (bulb like structure) sprouts anew in Spring. In the northern plains, these folks have piled peat or hay high upon their plants before winter. I recall someone here with reasonable -- not extreme -- cultural practices having their Basjoos survive several winters with overnight lows in the 10's and daytime highs in the upper 30's. In my perception, their practice was no different than what is recommended for Roses in the upper midwest.

Richard · 02-22-2015, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Rhododendrons, azaleas, oleander and I believe most broad leaf evergreens in cooler
regions are poisonous.

Genetically, Rhododendrons are both a genus (Rhododendron) and a tribe (Rhodoreae) of plants from the family Ericaceae with a long history on this planet.

True Azaleas are species in the genus Rhododendron. Excluding synonyms, there are over 20 species of Azaleas, some evergreen and others deciduous. All of them are native to areas of modern China. Some are poisonous to humans but others are not.

Another well-known genus of plants in Ericaceae is Vaccinium, which includes billberries, blueberries, cranberries, etc. -- all of which have evergreen forms and none of which are poisonous to humans.

With regard to Oleanders, genetically they are in the Dogbane family (Apocynaceae). The vast majority of these originated in Africa or prior. Many have evergreen forms including the genus Carissa which has edible fruits. In particular, I am growing Carissa spinarum, aka Kunkerberry.

12-09-2014, 05:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
siege2050 Hobby obsessor maximus Location: Oklahoma Find me on the map! Zone: zone 7 Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,092 BananaBucks : 375,624 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 854 Times Was Thanked 1,295 Times in 614 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 85 Times	What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? Due to some heating issues with my greenhouse, I have a bedroom full of plants, including 10 musa basjoo with 1 1/2 feet, to 4 of pstem. I am thinking about putting them in the greenhouse, as right now we are having nights that range around 31 degrees to 45. What temperature would kill the leaves off the potted pups, how far can it go below 32 without leaf burn as long as there is no actual frost on the leaves? __________________ If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any Banana pudding! How can you have any Banana pudding if you don't eat yer meat?! Click for weather forecast

12-09-2014, 05:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
jbyrd88888 ░▒▓█ Јustin █▓▒░ Location: H.P., N.C. Find me on the map! Zone: 7-J Name: Justin Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 668 BananaBucks : 42,011 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,104 Times Was Thanked 971 Times in 371 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 236 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? From what I remember last years attempt... As soon as I achieved 34 for 6-8hrs (accidently )randomly banana leafs got nuked... Basjoo didn't like but bounced back. My GH got down freezing maybe 2-3 time last year. Basjoo the only survivor... __________________ ■□■ J-Bert's Nana Grow Log ○●○ ●○● UPDATED 6-21-2015 ■□■

12-09-2014, 07:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 252,293 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? Basjoo: No frost - no die! The leaves may even survive quite nicely a short dip below 32^F. The rest is dependent on thickness and duration. I leave my Basjoo usually unprotected until there is serious damage to the leaves and that takes often several nights when the temperature goes down to about 25^F. It all depends on the duration. I would not give any guarantees, if the temperature remained for 8 hours or longer at 28 to 30^F. The cold needs time to penetrate to the sap to crystallize it, to break the cells from the inside. If a few short frost periods of 25^F were all, you would lose a few leaves and the PS would just produce new ones, because the frost had not enough time to penetrate into it and the plant would carry on. That is it for basjoo! I have no experiences, with other bananas. Several tropical plants die at temperatures above freezing, if they are exposed to them for a while, because their sap gels and the internal infrastructure can no longer function. Some bananas may well belong into that category. As far as basjoos are concerned, a tempory minor drop below 32^F due to heating failure is nothing to worry about, even if you should lose a few leaves. Good Luck, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-09-2014, 08:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
scottu <div style="font-weight: bold;"><div style="font-weight: bold;">&lt;div style=&quot;font-weight: bold;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;di v style=&amp;quot;font-weight: bold;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&a mp;amp;lt;di v sty scottu 's Photo Gallery Location: Bethlehem,Pa. Find me on the map! Zone: 6 Name: scott Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,192 BananaBucks : 8,766 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,595 Times Was Thanked 857 Times in 368 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,323 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? Without controlled conditions there is no way to be sure. The amount of time at a colder temp decides it's internal temp. I think that is the question, can basjoo survive an internal temp of below freezing? Anyone got the resources to find out? I just figure if the temps are going below freezing for more than a morning cold snap, do something to protect it from 32f or less or else. __________________ Viva La Banana

12-09-2014, 09:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
siege2050 Hobby obsessor maximus Location: Oklahoma Find me on the map! Zone: zone 7 Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,092 BananaBucks : 375,624 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 854 Times Was Thanked 1,295 Times in 614 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 85 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? I may leave a basjoo in there all winter to experiment. I have a canna Tuerckheimii (Big darn Canna, first year seedling approaching 10 feet, with nearly 3 foot long leaves) out there and it has surprised me with only partial leaf burn even down into the mid 20's outside. I would not think Tuerckheimii could handle cold being from a place like Belize. Freezing cold without frost is definitely different. __________________ If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any Banana pudding! How can you have any Banana pudding if you don't eat yer meat?! Click for weather forecast

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12-09-2014, 11:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
siege2050 Hobby obsessor maximus Location: Oklahoma Find me on the map! Zone: zone 7 Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,092 BananaBucks : 375,624 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 854 Times Was Thanked 1,295 Times in 614 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 85 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? I am a bit scared of castor bean lol, its a awesome looking plant too. Trying to find a tetrapanax as a substitute. __________________ If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any Banana pudding! How can you have any Banana pudding if you don't eat yer meat?! Click for weather forecast

12-09-2014, 11:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
siege2050 Hobby obsessor maximus Location: Oklahoma Find me on the map! Zone: zone 7 Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,092 BananaBucks : 375,624 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 854 Times Was Thanked 1,295 Times in 614 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 85 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? I have thought about growing it several times, but just growing datura worries me lol. I wish they could breed it for a lower toxicity. I am not clear if its just the beans, or the whole plant. A lot of plants in the garden are toxic though, I have a melianthus major, and I never even think about it being poison for some reason. __________________ If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any Banana pudding! How can you have any Banana pudding if you don't eat yer meat?! Click for weather forecast

12-10-2014, 01:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 252,293 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What temperature without frost, do Basjoo leaves burn, and die? Rhododendrons, azaleas, oleander and I believe most broad leaf evergreens in cooler regions are poisonous. They need that, because in winter they are the only green stuff around and would be decimated if they did not have this defence. However with castor beans it is a different story they live in the lush tropics, where most plants are green throughout the year. I am not sure why they need that defence. The problem is, that especially in the basic green leaved variety the red seed pods are very attractive to small children and you know, what toddlers do when they like something that fit into their mouths. The seed pods of the New Zealand are less enticing in their dark colour, but you still have to be concerned if there are preschoolers around. PS: I am just reading the book "A Fighting Chance" by Elizabeth Warren, the Oklahoma born Senator for Massachusetts; - quite a lady. She would make a fine President. __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them. Last edited by Olafhenny : 12-10-2014 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Adding PS

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