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bananimal

Keith --- how tall do your ARH pstems get? At petiole emergence.

bananimal

By convention, the height of a pstem has been measured from the ground to the point where the last sprouted leaf petiole shows from the pstem. At least on this forum. Never from tip of leaf to gnd.

sunfish

Is that the newest or oldest leaf ?

PR-Giants

I did search the phrase "petiole emergence" before I posed the question, but yours was the first reference to that phrase.

Many people measure P-stems differently and there does not seem to be a standard. The ground is never a good starting point because I plant on a grade and in a mat each subsequent generation is higher in relation to the ground.

The measurement I use is from the highest intersecting point of the highest eye or pup and the P-stem as my low point.
The high point for me is where the highest two petiole canals intersect.
This measurement leaves very little room for any mistakes or confusion.

First Generation single planting P-stem is 12' to 18'
A large mat after several years could have a P-stem bloom as short as 6'.
Nothing seems to be standard with the ARH, and the more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

BTW Dan, I am still completely confused by your explanation of "petiole emergence". Many people will probably be confused by how I measure P-stems, but I need meaningful numbers to compare data.

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sunfish

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I thought there was only two sizes of palms,
either you can pick up a basketball or you can't.

On a serious note, sometimes the bottom of the corm is not even touching the ground.
The ground is not always a constant, and the circumference of the P-stem is a more relevent number than the height.
Circumference is much more consistent at revealing health and future yield.

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Abnshrek

Mr. Mudd Bricks.. That's pretty nifty.. :^)
On a serious note.. w/ your p-stem heights varying like you say they do.. on the short one's how much smaller is the p-stem in circumference vs tall?

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bananimal

Kieth --- The way you said it, is precisely what I mean ----- "The high point for me is where the highest two petiole canals intersect." It's more descriptive than petiole emergence, a phrase I coined. I will no longer use it and use yours only.

Tony --- you said "Is that the newest or oldest leaf ?" What part of "last sprouted" don't you unnerstand? Posting and beer drinking don't mix!

B'mal

sunfish

I unnerstand now

sunfish

What's the difference from the way this palm is measured and the way you measure a p-stem ?

venturabananas

Well, it is true that many people do it differently, but there is a standard used by scientists who study bananas:

"Recorded from the base of pseudostem to emerging point of the peduncle"
i.e.,
"From base of pseudostem to the point of bunch emergence"

From:
Find in MUSALIT

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sunfish

Now I don't unnerstand again I thought it was petiole emergence

venturabananas

Normally pseudostem height is only recorded for mature banana plants -- plants with bunches. If you want to talk about plant height of a non-mature plant, then it would be like Dan and Keith were saying, more or less: from the base of the pseudostem (i.e., top of the corm) to the point where the newest leaf has or is emerging, i.e., where the emerging/emerged new leaf intersects with the petiole of the oldest leaf. In other words -- measure it like you've already been measuring it.

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sunfish

Okay I thought we were talking mature height ,but I think I have it now.

PR-Giants

Mark where does corm end and the base of pseudostem begin.

In the past I tried to use the highest point of the peduncle, but it was not a good choice with ARH. On average it was 4.5 inches higher than the intersecting point of the two highest petiole canals. The reason it was a bad choice is because the fruit of an ARH can break under it's own weight if laid on the ground. I needed to cut the P-stem and then cut the peduncle and carry the fruit to my truck. After removing the fruit from the peduncle, I then needed to return to the plant and reconstruct the correct angle of the peduncle to the P-stem to then take the measurement. To much work for tall P-stems maybe it is easier for smaller plants.

The low point is the one that causes the most confusion, so it would be nice if you could be clear about where the base of the P-stem begins.
I think it would be helpful to many members here.
Thanks Mark

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Abnshrek

I think where you may have no dirt at the bottom and some people have their corms up to 12 or maybe more inches in the ground do you just tack that on to the height? :^)

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venturabananas

It's where the leaf sheaths attach to the corm.

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sunfish

How precise do you really need to be ?

venturabananas

I'd say in a plant that varies from 6-18' at adult height, not very!

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