JoeReal

My statement should be taken as general rule and is very accurate when taken in the context of comparing beer and wine making. Most beers are ready for consumption way much earlier than wines. If we need to go technical here for your information, a newly fermented broth is technically called a beer, because it so young and jovial, with plenty of dissolved carbon dioxide. Most wines can be drinkable in a year, but less than 6 months if you make it my way.

The reason why the yeast strains matters a lot in beer making is that beers are consumed much sooner than wine because the type of yeast will affect the flavor and that flavor are detectable when the brew is younger. Aging the brew to become wine, most flavor differences when it comes to yeast type will disappear, even the different grape varietals of the same color will be harder to distinguish from its other with aging. In fact, the so called super-expert wine tasters will only sniff out get the wine varietals correctly only about 20% of the time in double blind tests, while the rest of the population will be just 5% correct when testing samples of 20 varietals at a time.

Sure you can add boiled ripe banana to the primary fermenter when you are making beer, but it depends on the variety. If you have read carefully the links posted and my credible references, meaning you can sue them if you believe they are not accurate, that the ordinary cavendish bananas from the store will have between 12 to 17 % sugar, with their starches only hovering around 1% or less. With the few added amylase enzymes, that 1% are obliterated while your primary fermentation is going on. But if you got those plantain types, those are not really advised to be added to the primary fermenter, and thus you are mostly inaccurate compared to me, at least you are 50% wrong, while I may only be 5% wrong.

MediaHound

The one I provided was a different type of link, notice when you click it, the URL in the address bar quickly gets redirected into a searchID link with a search ID number appended to it.
It is a url constructed to start a new search using the keyword, so it will work for everyone.
The link you posted is different, nobody can see the results page, because they are sort of "owned" by you & your username. Your linking directly to a search results page from a search you performed.
I get "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms." when I visit your link.
The link I posted was the first time that sort of link was shown to anyone on how to use it. It basically replicates performing the search for "wine" via the searchbox, but it does it through the address bar in your browser.
It's more secure this way, because let's say there were only two people online.
If you did a search, you could take that searchid number that was generated for the search you just did, add 1 to it, and keep refreshing the page till results showed, after they finally searched for something. You would know exactly what the other person on the forum just did a search for.
So for security, searchID links only work for the person who did the search.
But if you want to pass a link to someone to get them started on a search, you could modify the link I posted, change the keyword, and it would work for everyone, because it's simulating as if they typed the word in the searchbox. Each person that clicks the link gets directed to a personal results page, each with a different searchID number in the address bar.
Let's have a look at the link I posted, and what it consists of:

http://www.bananas.org/search.php?do=process&quicksearch=1&s=&query=wine
You have:
http://www.bananas.org/search.php (the location of the search software/script)
and then the following:
? (tells the server to start listening for parameters)
do=process (what are we doing? process the following)
& (separates the previous parameter from the next)
quicksearch=1 (this is something called a quicksearch, 1 for true, ok so we're quicksearching)
& (separates the previous parameter from the next)
s= (null - notice nothing exists after the equal sign, I don't even know what s would be even if there were a value for the paramater here, but depending on the value, we might be able to figure it out...but anyway)
& (separates the previous, but blank, parameter from the next)
query=wine (the magical query is "wine", show us some posts about wine)

If you were to simply type "wine" into the searchbox and hit submit, you would be sending all these parameters to the server just the same, but you wouldn't know it because its passed to the server in hidden fields. If you view the source of the page, you would see these parameters are all sent over when the form is submitted. You can send the search in through the web-based form, or through the address bar if your crafty like such.

phew!
<- catches breath now

__________________
Apologies in advance if I am slow to reply to your PM. I suggest posting in the forums for support if you need something urgent.

Gabe15

Well for fun Im gonna tell yall how the Africans used to do it all the time, and still do in small villages. First, you dig a big pit, about 4ft deep and 4ft wide, then generously line the pit with what else, banana leaves! Next add a few whole bunches from each of the 2 selected varieties (cant remember the cultivar names but no matter...), cover up the hole with more banana leaves and cover with dirt and let it sit for a few weeks or so. Then dig it all up, put your now mushy gross banana bunches in a big strainer type thing and squeeze all that fermented banana slosh out, then I guess you call your buddies over, serve daytime temperature in some calabash and enjoy!????

Well, at least its something along those lines........

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

JoeReal

Gabe, that one is more civilized way to do it. In some aborigines, they cook the plantain, then after they cool it, they masticate it (chew) to cover with their saliva, and then spit them into a big clay pot. When all the masticating and spitting is done, they seal it at the top with banana leaves. The men then go hunting, after a month they come back, and the brew is ready to drink!

Well, the cooking part hydrolyzes the starches, then the masticating with saliva part is actually placing the amylaze enzymes to convert the now hydrolyzed starches into sugar, and the yeast contaminants from the old batch provides the fermentation starters. Let alone, it becomes alcoholic banana beverage.

It has been done earlier with tapioca also, and that one I have seen a documentary, and the "lucky" national geographic interviewer gets to drink the alcoholic spit. Would anyone drink this uniquely brewed wine today?

And all of this brewing predates written history, when the term fermentation is unknown.

Heck, birds and elephants have been fermenting fruits long before mankind came to be.

modenacart

I am not sure what you mean I am 50% wrong and you are 5% wrong. I would like to see your numbers on that. I said that what you were saying is not completely true.

Of course yeast strain is one of your most important decisions. You can have wort that is exactly the same but use different yeast and have completely different beer. The easiest way to get a banana flavor in your beer is to just choose a yeast strain that has that characteristic and ferment above 75 F but no more than 80F or you will get too many fusel alcohols and it might taste bad and make your head hurt.

I am not sure what all your harping about the sugar and starch composition of bananas is about. Do you plan on making beer from bananas only? That wouldn't make much sense at all. You would still use malted barley for the bulk of the fermentables. People don't usually make beer from a fruit only. You would make a light lager and use bananas as flavoring. When people make pumpkin beer, blueberry beer, raspberry beer or whatever, they don't normally use the fruit as the bulk of the fermentable, its mostly for flavoring. You could add the bananas to the mash and use rice hulls to help prevent a stuck sparge, or you could add the bananas to the fermenter. You can add the bananas to the primary fermenter if you want but if you do that without boiling the bananas, you can expect a bacterial infested beer that would be mostly likely undrinkable. The reason you would add to the secondary is because of the higher alcohol content in the secondary with respect to the primary. That helps to reduce the risk of infection, therefore you don't have to boil the bananas as long, which will help keep from reducing the banana flavor. You can add the bananas whenever you want and do whatever you want with them but that doesn't make it a good idea.

JoeReal

Using malted barley (primarily as the source of enzymes, my friend, there are plenty of alternatives [think about koji-kin, other molds, commercially sold enzymes] as I did not fell asleep in my biochemistry subjects), is not the only way to make beer. Beers are commonly made from grain and starchy foods surely fruits and other non-toxic carbohydrate sources can be made into beer, and as I have told earlier, malted barley is not the only source of amylaze and other enzymes to yield more fermentables. Kindly review the technical differences between beer, wine, or sherry and while you're at it the different approaches to converting starches into sugar. I wouldn't spend time discussing this topic any further, you can simply review the fundamentals. But as promised to jeffrey, I will post my recipe for making banana sherry wine.

modenacart

What did I say that was incorrect?

I am not sure how you assigned a wrongness value to what is being said here but lets go. I am going to assume that we are talking about 100% as a whole. You say that I am 50% wrong and you are 5% wrong. If I assume you are correct when you say you are 5% wrong, I will be 95% wrong, but I could be wrong, I have been before. If you makes you feel better, I will play the part of being 95% wrong, even though I said you were not completely right, I didn't say you were completely wrong. So you win. It doesn't hurt my manhood any.

JoeReal

I do apologize modenacart. When I reviewed what you said, you were in fact were in agreement with me when you stated that barley WINE takes a year to become good compared to the 6 weeks for beer.

My point about the banana is that if it is starchy, and you used it either in primary or secondary, it could introduce haziness due to starch content and your enzymes that breaks down starches have been spent out. But certainly if it is a ripe cavendish type of banana, it can be added either in primary or secondary, simply because it is mostly sugar and water, and has a lot lower starch content, about 1% or less, and of course like you I would boil them, for the reason of sterilization rather than to break down the starches.

Again I do apologize for what seems to be picking out on you.

doubravsky

I dabble in homebrewing beer, and a few years back was trying to flavor a Wheat beer with bananas with no success.

Problem is, when added to the fermentation process either in the mash or later during primary or secondary fermentation, some fruits will partially ferment leaving some of the original fruit behind, and somefruits will completely ferment out, leaving a little more alcohol but none of the fruit flavor to the beer. Bananas seem to be one of the latter. I spoke with some of the experts at the local brew supply store.. and they all kind of said you can't get banana flavor into a beer unless you find some sort of liquid banana extract to flavor with instead of using real bananas.

just my two cents.

wim

Jarred,

Thank you for the URL tutorial!

__________________
With kind regards
Wim

JoeReal

That's the reason why bananas are often used to increase the body of wine without imparting banana flavor to the wine. In the banana wine recipe that I posted here, if it is followed down to the T, you will get nice banana flavor from ordinary cavendish store-bought bananas. Pressure cooking the pulps with mild acid was the trick to do before fermenting. The banana flavor will stay on all the way to several years after bottling the wine.

modenacart

What is your goal? Is it to brew with bananas or is it to get a banana flavor? If you just want the flavor you could try brewing a lager, or a light beer, with a hefeweisen yeast. This link is to a white labs brand yeast that provides a banana flavor.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebr...ns_wlp300.html

You could even ask them what they recommend if you are just looking for a banana flavor.

I would keep the hops down a little to help bring out the banana flavor. You might just have to experiement some until you get the desired results, but that is what makes brewing fun.

doubravsky

I'm not so sure about using the hefeweizen yeast. i've used the liquid yeasts quite a bit, and I've seen them describe different fruits based on the fermentation temperature... but my pallette is not discriminating enough to taste it. It's kind of like all of the fruit flavors they attribute to different wines... very subtle.

You would probably need to get your hands on some sort of "banana extract" that you could add during the secondary or even at the bottling/ kegging process to get a flavor that you actually can taste and that really seems like banana flavored beer.

JoeReal

I would consider it a total failure in wine making if I could not get the banana flavor from banana fruits if my intent was to get the real flavor from real fruits.

I would keep on tinkering with my wine making processes until I get the desired flavor intended. It is the best part, discovering for yourself how to achieve such a feat and sharing it. At least for me, using the extracts would mean total surrender. Might as well grab a buttweiller and put the extract and drown the failures away. But again, that's just how I would feel about it.

modenacart

Using extracts is not a failure. What you need to do is discover what you goal is and what you need to do to achieve it. If you are such a snob that you are not willing to try alternative methods such as extracts, well you are missing out. There is a whole array of flavors out there you may be missing out on.

By they way, I am not fan of Budweiser, however they are some of the best brewmasters out there. They produce an extremely repeatable product, which most people cannot do. Someone should not hate on people because they like something. There is a time and place for every beer out there. Someone's personal taste in beer is just that. What they like. A refined tasted is just a group of people's definition of what refined is and that is not the same for everyone out there.

JoeReal

modenacart, you really love to take my statements out of context. I hope my English is clear and you are already calling me some name which is not appropriate. See for yourself and reread my posts and yours. Do I need to spell out everything to you as in spoon-feeding? And yet I have refrained from calling you names. There are appropriate uses for extracts, but those are not my objectives, and in my opinion, those are shortcutting the discovery process, aka, cheating the process. But see that there is no name calling. I can say that somebody here really lacked experience, afterall, I grow more than 325 kinds of fruiting plants in my tiny backyard and my goal is to make wine from each of them, imparting their flavors in the wine without cheating. And that is entirely a different objective compared to using extracts. I have made more than 400 kinds of wines all in all. I grew the fruit trees myself, achieving something like 50 kinds of citrus cultivars in one tree. So you have lot to learn as of yet, and I am not missing out by cheating on the extracts.

Many extracts are concentrated using carcinogenic chemicals, that's why I avoided them. Some are fortified with artificial flavors. Yes I have used these extracts too, ie, vanilla from 100% vanilla pods, but I made sure they follow the guidelines for natural extractions such as being in 35% alcohol.

A failure is if you can't achieve the goals you set out. To use an extract with a different goal is another matter and you really missed out on that. So if you can contextualize my previous post, you could learn a thing or two before judging somebody as a snob. I take that as a direct personal insult when all the while I was talking in a third person generalization.

modenacart

Every time someone has made a suggestion you slam it down like they know nothing and you have all the knowledge and your methods are superior than other peoples. If you can't see that, well I feel for you. All the suggestions made on this post have been valid suggestions if someone wants to try them. You once again you state that using extracts are cheating. I contend that it is not. If someone likes the outcome they get from extracts. Good for them, they found what they want.

jeffreyp

Personally, I think I'd like the challenge to get the correct flavor from the fruit with the wine or beer I'm making rather than use extract. Sometimes you just don't have the time to tinker with things to make things just right and I can see why someone would want to use extracts. I would like to say that I do think both ways are valid it just comes down to what you have time or desire to do.

modenacart

It does feel good to get what you want out of the fruit you are using. It is, for me, more satisfying. I don't really like to use extract but sometimes when you are in a pinch they work really well. Extracts are nice for consistency too.

JoeReal

jeffrey, as promised here's the Banana Sherry Wine Recipe I promised earlier. It is in the other recipe thread.

Was really surprised the Banana Sherry Wine is really good. And coming from bananas, makes it all worthwhile to grow them. And that is why we participate in this forum. Keep that in mind even if we disagree with each other.

http://www.bananas.org/showthread.php?p=8545#post8545