Here's what happens if you don't remove pups - Page 2

Olafhenny · 11-18-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

...It was black slime with no signs of life at all. All the cut down pseudo-stems and corms were rotting and smelled like rotting fish. It took me weeks to clear all the mess and get the soil somewhat dried out and back to normal. I continued to remove rot from plants well into spring. I won't be doing that again!

I would presume, that the problem lies in the slime sealing off all air supply to the roots, a problem,
which would be exacerbated if your native soil is non-porous in the first place. To me that slime
has to be terrific fertilizer.

Case in point: All plants need water to survive, but remaining submerged in it for some time will kill
most of them.

Olafhenny · 11-18-2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

I placed the shredded/chopped bananas on top of clay soil that had been amended with composted material for several years. Even after all that amending it's still hard packed clay just a few feet down so it can only handle just so much water, especially being on relatively flat ground where there is little runoff. Add some cold temps and you have a real mess on your hands!

As for feeder roots are you talking about the bright furry white ones just under the surface of the soil or compost?

If you want to convert your clay soil into good arable loam, I would recommend mixing
under a 1 inch thick layer each, of peat moss and sand (place the sand on top of the peat moss,
because the former will have the tendency to work itself up) and work that in at least 8 inches
deep. You will love that soil later. Your standard garden tiller will not work deep enough, but
will come in handy later in breaking down the lumps some more afterwards.

One 3.8 cf bale of peat moss covers about 45 sf and 1/2 cubic yard of sand covers about 160
square feet. Because you have already some composted material in place you may get away
with using 1/2 cy of sand and 3 bales of peat moss for an area of 10' x 16'.

A lot of people say 'clay' (quite bad for gardening), when they are really dealing with silt (not
so bad). There is an easy way of telling the two apart: You knead a small piece into a ball,
put it into a container with water and leave it sit over night. If the next morning it is still a ball
and does not fall apart when lightly pressed, then you have indeed clay. If it has dissolved into
a little pile of dirt or falls apart easily it is silt. You should make sure that you get some of the
original stuff without compost mixed in for a reliable result.

In either case the above will work, - just a lot better with silt

Nicolas Naranja · 11-19-2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

You get a lot of bunches of bananas!

So think about what you want, and then decide what you're going to do about removing pups.

Note that this mat isn't surrounded by other tall plants, so it gets good sun on all sides. If it was shaded by other mats, you'd probably get a different result.

If you just have one mat of bananas, this is probably the way to go about it. If you have lots of different ones it is best to keep the suckers under control. I have a planting behind my house that it spaced for 800 plants per acre and it requires a lot more management than my larger planting which is only 200 plants per acre. It also depends a lot on your disease conditions, natural fertility, and water availability. In the Florida sands, you might not get much out of a mat like that.

Nicolas Naranja · 11-19-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Wow, I have been using that same technique for 15 years and it works great here.
My entire growing strategy is based on this technique and I have not been able to find anything that works better.
My goal is a minimum of 6" after being compacted, the crushed pseudostems also works perfectly.
It seems a little odd that the climate makes that much of a difference, but that explains quite a bit about the differences with water and nutrients and even why you guys seemed satisfied with 5'-10' feeder roots.

At least now you know you had a great idea, just the wrong climate.

Thanks for the info, Mitchel.

More rain and more heat make all the difference in the world. Even here in Florida, during the winter things slow down and vegetation doesn't break down. What type of grass are you using, that may also play a role.

Bananaman88 · 11-19-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

I would presume, that the problem lies in the slime sealing off all air supply to the roots, a problem,
which would be exacerbated if your native soil is non-porous in the first place. To me that slime
has to be terrific fertilizer.

Case in point: All plants need water to survive, but remaining submerged in it for some time will kill
most of them.

I agree about the lack of air. Lack of oxygen into the soil causes an anaerobic condition (hence the nasty smell) and can also help lead to the root rot if there is too much moisture present.

sunfish · 11-19-2012, 04:34 PM

Soil color - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

venturabananas · 11-19-2012, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

I'd like to know if you think this set up would work in your climate.

It is difficult for me to understand why these techniques will not work in California.

I would be surprised if someone could get the roots to rot while maintaining a healthy corm.

I honestly don't know if it would work, but my gut reaction is that it wouldn't work over winter because you'd have problems with rot. I think that when we get root rot it is at least in part because the corm is not healthy or at least not happy. When soil temperatures are in the 40's (F) and the soil is wet, banana corms are not happy and prone to rot. That's not to say they invariably will rot, established plants hang in there, but in terms of growth, they practically go into stasis during our relatively mild winter. I've been keeping track of how long it takes new leaves to emerge. For the fast growers, it'll take a month for each new leaf during our winter, and for the slow growing varieties (i.e., the most cold sensitive), it takes 3-4 months for some. I think the differences between California and the tropics for banana growing all boil down to temperature.

cheson74 · 11-19-2012, 10:04 PM

I cover the base of the bananas with cut leaves, compost and misc green waste and they thrive. However, on an extremely rare night, the temperature might possibly drop to the high 50s during the winter but will warm up to the 70s and 80s during the day. The soil temperature never really drops because there isn't a prolong drop in temperature.

PR-Giants · 11-20-2012, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheson74

I cover the base of the bananas with cut leaves, compost and misc green waste and they thrive. However, on an extremely rare night, the temperature might possibly drop to the high 50s during the winter but will warm up to the 70s and 80s during the day. The soil temperature never really drops because there isn't a prolong drop in temperature.

That's actually not a good thing to do, if you live in an area with corm weevils and sigatoka. It will attract weevils and increase the moisture level between the ground and leaves which in turn increases your risk to sigatoka.

At night when the weevils are active the predators have a more difficult time of catching them in the yard waste opposed to a sandy surface.

A better way would simply be to cover the yard waste with a couple inches of sand. This will increase the moisture level below the soil surface while decreases the moisture level between the surface and the leaves.

PR-Giants · 11-20-2012, 07:06 PM

From my experience I've learned that a corm should be planted in sandy soil with the fertile soil about a foot away. This will lower the moisture level near the corm and reduce the risk of corm rot. The roots will quickly and easily reach the nutrient rich soil nearby.

I also take this same approach when planting small plants or corm pieces in pots. I first plant in a small pot of sand and when they are ready for a larger pot, I fill the bottom with enough quality soil to maintain the same surface level of the original pot. Next I stuff about 2 inches of semi-composted grass clippings between the root ball and the pot, then fill the remaining space with quality soil.

The reason for adding the grass is twofold. First, it retains moisture well and gives the roots a great medium to grow in. Second, it acts similarly to a rubber O-ring by preventing any water added from running down between the pot and soil. Often times when someone forgets to water, the soil will contract but the grass will not and this will eliminate the need to soak the pots.

sunfish · 11-20-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

From my experience I've learned that a corm should be planted in sandy soil with the fertile soil about a foot away. This will lower the moisture level near the corm and reduce the risk of corm rot. The roots will quickly and easily reach the nutrient rich soil nearby.

I also take this same approach when planting small plants or corm pieces in pots. I first plant in a small pot of sand and when they are ready for a larger pot, I fill the bottom with enough quality soil to maintain the same surface level of the original pot. Next I stuff about 2 inches of semi-composted grass clippings between the root ball and the pot, then fill the remaining space with quality soil.

The reason for adding the grass is twofold. First, it retains moisture well and gives the roots a great medium to grow in. Second, it acts similarly to a rubber O-ring by preventing any water added from running down between the pot and soil. Often times when someone forgets to water, the soil will contract but the grass will not and this will eliminate the need to soak the pots.

Sounds good to me

cheson74 · 11-21-2012, 10:19 AM

The soil here isn't even close to being sandy. It's hard, compacted clay. Without the addition of the green waste and compost, the bananas struggle. They become stunted, fruit bunches are pathetic and are probably more susceptible to disease. I've yet had a single plant hit with BTV or sigatoka. I'm not saying I'm immune to it; just haven't had it with this method of feeding the plants and loosening the soil.

Several of my neighbors, only 50-100 meters away, have had several diseased plants and they don't do a thing with their soil. Such is the life here in Hawaii.

PR-Giants · 11-21-2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheson74

The soil here isn't even close to being sandy. It's hard, compacted clay. Without the addition of the green waste and compost, the bananas struggle. They become stunted, fruit bunches are pathetic and are probably more susceptible to disease. I've yet had a single plant hit with BTV or sigatoka. I'm not saying I'm immune to it; just haven't had it with this method of feeding the plants and loosening the soil.

Several of my neighbors, only 50-100 meters away, have had several diseased plants and they don't do a thing with their soil. Such is the life here in Hawaii.

It seems as though you may have missed the point I was making, but at least you're lucky to have soil that's problem is only hard compacted clay. You are correct that laying yard waste on top of compacted clay will loosen the soil by increasing the moisture level, but by covering the yard waste with a couple inches of sand or in your case with some compacted clay will further loosen the soil by increasing the moisture level even more.

This is my top soil and laying yard waste on top of it will not loosen it at all.
It needs to be drilled, removed, crushed, amended and then returned, so if I go through that much effort I might as well do it to the best of my ability.

My whole mountain is one solid piece of this, with the exception of some veins of clay. Finding clay is a thrilling experience, it is so much easier to work with and gives be the ability to plant more in less time.

cheson74 · 11-21-2012, 01:41 PM

You definitely have it rougher than I do! I started out by tilling/pick axing the first 8 inches. I throw more green waste and compost on top and with a combination of an automatic watering system and high temperatures here, it breaks down extremely fast.

PR-Giants · 11-21-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bananaman88

I agree about the lack of air. Lack of oxygen into the soil causes an anaerobic condition (hence the nasty smell) and can also help lead to the root rot if there is too much moisture present.

This is the anaerobic condition you are referring to and it is confirmed by the nasty smell present.

I work very hard to achieve this condition and firmly believe it to be the best environment for growing long healthy feeder roots.

I did not want to disturb the roots too much because they are very fragile, but the deeper I dig into the ground the darker and wetter it appears.

There is a very easy experiment that can be performed to confirm what you are seeing.

Dig a 30 foot trench and fill it with compacted grass clippings.
Then plant a banana near one end and you will be able to see firsthand how it fills with roots.

There could be multiple reasons why this occurs.

One reason could be that a root enters the slime and becomes disorientated and lost. The corm then sends more roots into the slime in an attempt to rescue the lost root and they also become disorientated and this vicious cycle continues until harvest.

Another reason could be that they just prefer this type of environment.

I fully realize that most things written here and elsewhere describe this as a bad environment for growing bananas in the tropics and subtropics.

My intent for posting the photo was only to give you more information and let you make your own decision of what is possible or preferable.

The key to this being successful might be because I keep the corm in dry sandy soil and only the roots are allowed to grow into the slime, but I honestly don't know the answer. I have questioned many of the members here but was mainly met with skepticism and advice on using better growing techniques.

Please keep in mind that I do not use anything else to feed my bananas and have never needed to water them, the grass acts as a sponge in the ground holding the moisture until needed by the banana plant.

Black Slime nov 21

Olafhenny · 11-21-2012, 02:36 PM

Not all nasty smell is due to anaerobic digestion. While exacerbated in anaerobic conditions, all
rotting matter smells to some extend.

Fact is:
• Roots do need air, that is why farmers have since thousands of year submitted to the back
breaking task of hoeing between plants
• Clay, till and to lesser extent silt tend to restrict access of air to the roots and need more
effort at aeration.
• Any addition of slimy liquids will tend to seal off already dense soils completely, while having
only beneficial impact on sufficiently porous soils.
• In the cited example of compacted grass clippings in a trench, analysis will show you, that
there is as much air between even compacted clippings as you find in most porous soils.
• Local conditions must dictate treatment in specific cases

Nicolas Naranja · 11-21-2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

• In the cited example of compacted grass clippings in a trench, analysis will show you, that there is as much air between even compacted clippings as you find in most porous soils.
• Local conditions must dictate treatment in specific cases

I'll stand by these statements from personal experience after measuring bulk density and air filled porosity of a variety of different substrates. I still want to know what kind of grass you are using. Are you using something like Para Grass

PR-Giants · 11-21-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Not all nasty smell is due to anaerobic digestion. While exacerbated in anaerobic conditions, all
rotting matter smells to some extend.

Fact is:
• Roots do need air, that is why farmers have since thousands of year submitted to the back
breaking task of hoeing between plants
• Clay, till and to lesser extent silt tend to restrict access of air to the roots and need more
effort at aeration.
• Any addition of slimy liquids will tend to seal off already dense soils completely, while having
only beneficial impact on sufficiently porous soils.
• In the cited example of compacted grass clippings in a trench, analysis will show you, that
there is as much air between even compacted clippings as you find in most porous soils.
• Local conditions must dictate treatment in specific cases

Thanks Olaf,

As I stated, I don't know the answer but that doesn't seem to explain why there are more roots under the water.
As you can see my soil doesn't drain too well and those roots have only been underwater for about 8 or 9 months.

Yuri Barros · 11-21-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Another reason could be that they just prefer this type of environment.

This environement is similar to those wild bananas are founded...............isn´t it............???

Just rotten leaves.........................

Long roots are seen running near soil surface......................and if you add a little bit of soil or dead leaves....................soon you will see long roots running at surface.....................

I think that Bananas like this stuff...............

Olafhenny · 11-21-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Thanks Olaf,

As I stated, I don't know the answer but that doesn't seem to explain why there are more roots under the water.
As you can see my soil doesn't drain too well and those roots have only been underwater for about 8 or 9 months.

My specific experience with bananas is limited to raising some of them for 3 years and to what I
have observed during my visits to the tropics. The latter includes seeing bananas right at the
edges of rice fields on ground just inches above the waterline and only a few feet from the water's
edge. I have posted on this in other threads in this forum, when I thought that undue concern was
voiced about root rot. There was also a lady here posting about raising bananas in pots
completely submerged in water.

We must not discount, that there is a fair amount of air contained in water, which appears to explain,
that anaerobic decomposition happens generally in standing waters of about 4 feet in depth and more.

The concentration of the roots in the “soup” is probably caused by the nutrients contained
therein and the roots reaching for them.

11-19-2012, 04:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
sunfish Banned sunfish's Photo Gallery Location: San Diego Find me on the map! Zone: 9-11 Name: Tony Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18,429 BananaBucks : 1,012,383 Feedback: 8 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,210 Times Was Thanked 20,592 Times in 7,760 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,716 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups Soil color - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

11-19-2012, 10:04 PM	#28 (permalink)
cheson74 Aloha cheson74's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Zone: 12a Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 341 BananaBucks : 57,782 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 254 Times Was Thanked 491 Times in 145 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups I cover the base of the bananas with cut leaves, compost and misc green waste and they thrive. However, on an extremely rare night, the temperature might possibly drop to the high 50s during the winter but will warm up to the 70s and 80s during the day. The soil temperature never really drops because there isn't a prolong drop in temperature. __________________

11-20-2012, 07:06 PM	#30 (permalink)
PR-Giants Commercial Grower Location: Florida & Greater Antilles Find me on the map! Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,616 BananaBucks : 577 Feedback: 16 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,927 Times Was Thanked 12,649 Times in 3,693 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,215 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups From my experience I've learned that a corm should be planted in sandy soil with the fertile soil about a foot away. This will lower the moisture level near the corm and reduce the risk of corm rot. The roots will quickly and easily reach the nutrient rich soil nearby. I also take this same approach when planting small plants or corm pieces in pots. I first plant in a small pot of sand and when they are ready for a larger pot, I fill the bottom with enough quality soil to maintain the same surface level of the original pot. Next I stuff about 2 inches of semi-composted grass clippings between the root ball and the pot, then fill the remaining space with quality soil. The reason for adding the grass is twofold. First, it retains moisture well and gives the roots a great medium to grow in. Second, it acts similarly to a rubber O-ring by preventing any water added from running down between the pot and soil. Often times when someone forgets to water, the soil will contract but the grass will not and this will eliminate the need to soak the pots. __________________ PR-Giants Photo Gallery 15,000+ Varieties

11-21-2012, 10:19 AM	#32 (permalink)
cheson74 Aloha cheson74's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Zone: 12a Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 341 BananaBucks : 57,782 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 254 Times Was Thanked 491 Times in 145 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups The soil here isn't even close to being sandy. It's hard, compacted clay. Without the addition of the green waste and compost, the bananas struggle. They become stunted, fruit bunches are pathetic and are probably more susceptible to disease. I've yet had a single plant hit with BTV or sigatoka. I'm not saying I'm immune to it; just haven't had it with this method of feeding the plants and loosening the soil. Several of my neighbors, only 50-100 meters away, have had several diseased plants and they don't do a thing with their soil. Such is the life here in Hawaii. __________________

11-21-2012, 01:41 PM	#34 (permalink)
cheson74 Aloha cheson74's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Zone: 12a Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 341 BananaBucks : 57,782 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 254 Times Was Thanked 491 Times in 145 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups You definitely have it rougher than I do! I started out by tilling/pick axing the first 8 inches. I throw more green waste and compost on top and with a combination of an automatic watering system and high temperatures here, it breaks down extremely fast. __________________

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11-21-2012, 02:36 PM	#36 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 252,166 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups Not all nasty smell is due to anaerobic digestion. While exacerbated in anaerobic conditions, all rotting matter smells to some extend. Fact is: • Roots do need air, that is why farmers have since thousands of year submitted to the back breaking task of hoeing between plants • Clay, till and to lesser extent silt tend to restrict access of air to the roots and need more effort at aeration. • Any addition of slimy liquids will tend to seal off already dense soils completely, while having only beneficial impact on sufficiently porous soils. • In the cited example of compacted grass clippings in a trench, analysis will show you, that there is as much air between even compacted clippings as you find in most porous soils. • Local conditions must dictate treatment in specific cases __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

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