Last night burned bad

Nicolas Naranja · 12-15-2010, 03:36 PM

Everything that was under 5' tall got toasted last night, so I've got about 1200 very ugly looking plants. On the bright side, the plants with fruit came through OK.

mushtaq86 · 12-15-2010, 04:37 PM

Kostas · 12-15-2010, 05:22 PM

I am very sorry for that Nicolas. At least the fruit came through ok!
What was last night's minimum? Was the pseudostem affected or only the leaf blades?

mushtaq86 · 12-15-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

Everything that was under 5' tall got toasted last night, so I've got about 1200 very ugly looking plants. On the bright side, the plants with fruit came through OK.

Was it just the leaves.

Dean W. · 12-15-2010, 05:44 PM

Sorry to hear it...

Nicolas Naranja · 12-15-2010, 06:32 PM

Small Dwarf Puerto Ricans

Taller Dwarf Puerto Ricans

Dwarf Nam Wahs

FHIA-17s

Nicolas Naranja · 12-15-2010, 06:38 PM

I don't know how cold it got and I'm not 100% sure it was last night that did them in. Everyone I have talked to up there says it was about 35-36 last night, but there was no wind. When I went up there with a handheld Monday night the wind was blowing hard and my handheld was reading between 28 and 30, a normal thermometer was reading 30 about 1 mile down the road away from the lake. I think the taller plants just had leaf burn, but real small ones I fear may have been killed outright.

Olafhenny · 12-15-2010, 09:33 PM

Hi Nicolas,

wind or no wind, I cannot see how any plant can sustain that kind of damage at above freezing temperatures. It takes ice crystals, which form within cells and crush their structure to create that damage, and not even hurricane strengths winds can accomplish that at temperatures even a fraction above freezing.

Now, when the temps sink below 0^C (32^F) , wind suddenly becomes an important factor, as the faster subfreezing air brushes by the leaves, the faster it will cool and cause the formation of ice crystals within the cells of the leaf.

You are correct, when you assume. that the damage may have occurred prior to the night in question, because the damage only becomes evident after it thaws again. During the frost period the ice crystals still support the leaf structure, but when it thaws, everything crumples. – Just toss a lettuce leaf into your freezer. You will see, that it still looks okay, when you first take it out, but it will quickly turn soft and collapse thereafter.

Best,
Olaf

Nicolas Naranja · 12-15-2010, 09:45 PM

Bananas are a little bit different than other plants, they will actually get damaged at above freezing because the sap congeals at low temperatures. Wind can burn leaves, I've seen it with my own eyes in the middle of summer. The question for me is, was it frost last night or was it an actual advective freeze, which is pretty unusual within 1000 feet of lake Okeechobee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Hi Nicolas,

wind or no wind, I cannot see how any plant can sustain that kind of damage at above freezing temperatures. It takes ice crystals, which form within cells and crush their structure to create that damage, and not even hurricane strengths winds can accomplish that at temperatures even a fraction above freezing.

Now, when the temps sink below 0^C (32^F) , wind suddenly becomes an important factor, as the faster subfreezing air brushes by the leaves, the faster it will cool and cause the formation of ice crystals within the cells of the leaf.

You are correct, when you assume. that the damage may have occurred prior to the night in question, because the damage only becomes evident after it thaws again. During the frost period the ice crystals still support the leaf structure, but when it thaws, everything crumples. – Just toss a lettuce leaf into your freezer. You will see, that it still looks okay, when you first take it out, but it will quickly turn soft and collapse thereafter.

Best,
Olaf

Olafhenny · 12-15-2010, 11:06 PM

Hi Nicholas,

I imagine, that it would take quite some hot and dry weather t "burn" banana leaves, i.e., dry them out and that is highly unlikely in this time of the year.

I do not know anything about sap gelling in banana leaves, but I would imagine, that as soon as the temperature rises, the gel would liquefy again? From my perspective of ignorance on the subject, I find it difficult to believe, that the gel would actually destroy the leave structure, other than through starvation over a substantial period of time.

I would still put my money on an unexpected brief period of frost in the early morning hours of a clear day. But, hey, I have been wrong before, especially when I did not know what I was talking about.

again.
Best,
Olaf

Nicolas Naranja · 12-16-2010, 07:33 AM

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...e-response.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Hi Nicholas,

I imagine, that it would take quite some hot and dry weather t "burn" banana leaves, i.e., dry them out and that is highly unlikely in this time of the year.

I do not know anything about sap gelling in banana leaves, but I would imagine, that as soon as the temperature rises, the gel would liquefy again? From my perspective of ignorance on the subject, I find it difficult to believe, that the gel would actually destroy the leave structure, other than through starvation over a substantial period of time.

I would still put my money on an unexpected brief period of frost in the early morning hours of a clear day. But, hey, I have been wrong before, especially when I did not know what I was talking about.

again.
Best,
Olaf

rick2001 · 12-16-2010, 09:15 AM

Nicolas I'm very sorry for you and your 'nanas....

But is it normal to reach such freezing temps in Florida ??? It is supposed to be a subtropical area....

coast crab · 12-16-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

I don't know how cold it got and I'm not 100% sure it was last night that did them in. Everyone I have talked to up there says it was about 35-36 last night, but there was no wind. When I went up there with a handheld Monday night the wind was blowing hard and my handheld was reading between 28 and 30, a normal thermometer was reading 30 about 1 mile down the road away from the lake. I think the taller plants just had leaf burn, but real small ones I fear may have been killed outright.

Nicolas,

We had some terrible nights here too last week and this week. Last Saturday I cut burned/blackened foliage off of everything (I know, but I don't want to look at that mess all winter), and we went to 24 here Tuesday morning and woke up to 64 this morning!

The first damage that showed up was on the plants outside of my oak canopy. It wasn't freeze damage as much as it was frost damage. I remember nursery friends telling me that if there is wind, there won't be frost, which is a good thing for them. It's those still, damp nights that can do some real damage to tender plants even without an actual freeze. That wind can be a life saver above freezing, but all bets are off below freezing. Maybe this is what happened, you may have been hit a couple of frosty nights in a row. From that picture your plants are in the wide open with no protection.

Russell

Nicolas Naranja · 12-16-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick2001

Nicolas I'm very sorry for you and your 'nanas....

But is it normal to reach such freezing temps in Florida ??? It is supposed to be a subtropical area....

No, it is very unusual to have such low temps especially this early in the year. Apparently we broke some 50 year old records. And my farm is just east of a very large body of water. It's been a troubling past 2 years with freezes. Florida tends to go through freeze cycles and every few decades we will have several freezes year after year. In the late 70s it snowed in Miami and then there were harsh freezes several times in the 80s culminating in the 89 freeze which destroyed the citrus industry. It actually froze my pool as a kid. After that there were only 2 minor freezes until 2009.

John O · 12-16-2010, 12:34 PM

Tuesday night / Wednesday early morning was bad for me also. All my Canna have collapsed, most / all Thai Black burned, all Siam ruby burned, all Misaluki burned, all Dwarf Cavendish burned, all Basjool burned, all Ensete Maurelii burned collapse plus even Arboricola Trinette got frost burn on the tips. I was hoping for a better winter in Fl. (Pinellas County) this year. Doesn't look good for the nursery if spring isn't a bang out year.

John

Olafhenny · 12-16-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...e-response.pdf

Thank you Nicholas, this is a very interesting article and I made sure to file it away. Having so far only 7 months of experience with only the M Basjoo, I need all the information I can get and this was a bundle of that.

Unfortunately the article, while discussing the impact of low temperatures on the fruit, it did not go into much detail about how low temperature affects leaves. However, if the fruit can be harmed by low, but above freezing temperatures, even during relatively brief exposures. it is safe to assume, that the leaves are similarly susceptible.

In my case the Basjoo sustained some damage, to the upper leaves only, after a light frost, while the lower, more protected ones remained still in reasonable shape.

Let us hope, that the rest of the winter will remain warmer and friendlier toward your bananas.
Best,
Olaf

rick2001 · 12-17-2010, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

Apparently we broke some 50 year old records. A

It's the same here in Rome..... I can't even remember the last time we reached -4° celsius ... especially in December.
Even the Basjoos suffered the last few days' chill.

Nicolas Naranja · 12-17-2010, 08:21 AM

Apparently I had some frost in my backyard, which I don't believe has happened since 1989. I've noticed some of the grass has dried out and died and the broadleaf weeds are black.

TommyMacLuckie · 12-17-2010, 10:17 AM

Nicolas, I looked up the weather history for your area and it was the morning of December 15th it got down to 30F.

That's pretty bad for that far south. It got down to 26F here in Mandeville, LA (only 35 in New Orleans). I've been cleaning up dead banana fronds - thousands of 'em - for days now. I'll be finishing up all the tall stuff today. It's a lot of work but only for a few days.

All the fruit that was out got zapped. 99% of what got badly damaged in January did not get to mature at all this year. And now approximately 11 months to the day? later, another zapper.

Where is the so called global "warming" when it seems we're just getting colder and colder spells like this? Where is this supposed La Nina that gives the SE US a warmer and wetter winter on average?

All worthless myths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was playing on the beach in Fort Lauderdale in...1977? 1979? when it snowed. I was just a kid.

Nicolas Naranja · 12-17-2010, 02:46 PM

We tend to have some incredible microclimates along the lake shore. There is a weather station about a mile from the lake that measured 30, the one at my work which is 5 miles from the lake measured 25. At my house about 200' from the lake shore it was 34. The closest official weather station to my farm measured 34 as well, but it is about 2 miles south.

12-15-2010, 03:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 476,021 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Last night burned bad Everything that was under 5' tall got toasted last night, so I've got about 1200 very ugly looking plants. On the bright side, the plants with fruit came through OK. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

12-15-2010, 04:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
mushtaq86 mushtaq86's Photo Gallery Location: Hartlepool, UK Name: Mushtaq Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 706 BananaBucks : 69,529 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,707 Times Was Thanked 819 Times in 380 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 46 Times	Re: Last night burned bad

12-15-2010, 05:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
Kostas Kostas's Photo Gallery Location: Glyfada,Greece Zone: 10a Name: Konstantinos Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 808 BananaBucks : 225,510 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,141 Times Was Thanked 1,073 Times in 472 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Last night burned bad I am very sorry for that Nicolas. At least the fruit came through ok! What was last night's minimum? Was the pseudostem affected or only the leaf blades? __________________ ''To try,is to risk failure......To not try,is to guarantee it''

12-15-2010, 05:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
Dean W. Dean W.'s Photo Gallery Location: Cedar Park, TX Zone: 8b Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,279 BananaBucks : 241,341 Feedback: 13 / 100% Said "Thanks" 6,325 Times Was Thanked 2,130 Times in 972 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 300 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Sorry to hear it... __________________

12-15-2010, 06:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 476,021 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Small Dwarf Puerto Ricans Taller Dwarf Puerto Ricans Dwarf Nam Wahs FHIA-17s __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

Members currently in the chatroom: 0
	The most chatters online in one day was 17, 09-06-2009. No one is currently using the chat.

12-15-2010, 06:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 476,021 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Last night burned bad I don't know how cold it got and I'm not 100% sure it was last night that did them in. Everyone I have talked to up there says it was about 35-36 last night, but there was no wind. When I went up there with a handheld Monday night the wind was blowing hard and my handheld was reading between 28 and 30, a normal thermometer was reading 30 about 1 mile down the road away from the lake. I think the taller plants just had leaf burn, but real small ones I fear may have been killed outright. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

12-15-2010, 09:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 252,428 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Hi Nicolas, wind or no wind, I cannot see how any plant can sustain that kind of damage at above freezing temperatures. It takes ice crystals, which form within cells and crush their structure to create that damage, and not even hurricane strengths winds can accomplish that at temperatures even a fraction above freezing. Now, when the temps sink below 0^C (32^F) , wind suddenly becomes an important factor, as the faster subfreezing air brushes by the leaves, the faster it will cool and cause the formation of ice crystals within the cells of the leaf. You are correct, when you assume. that the damage may have occurred prior to the night in question, because the damage only becomes evident after it thaws again. During the frost period the ice crystals still support the leaf structure, but when it thaws, everything crumples. – Just toss a lettuce leaf into your freezer. You will see, that it still looks okay, when you first take it out, but it will quickly turn soft and collapse thereafter. Best, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-15-2010, 11:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 252,428 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Hi Nicholas, I imagine, that it would take quite some hot and dry weather t "burn" banana leaves, i.e., dry them out and that is highly unlikely in this time of the year. I do not know anything about sap gelling in banana leaves, but I would imagine, that as soon as the temperature rises, the gel would liquefy again? From my perspective of ignorance on the subject, I find it difficult to believe, that the gel would actually destroy the leave structure, other than through starvation over a substantial period of time. I would still put my money on an unexpected brief period of frost in the early morning hours of a clear day. But, hey, I have been wrong before, especially when I did not know what I was talking about. again. Best, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-16-2010, 09:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
rick2001 rick2001's Photo Gallery Location: Focene (Rome's surrounding), Italy Find me on the map! Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 411 BananaBucks : 70,069 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 78 Times Was Thanked 422 Times in 210 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 5 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Nicolas I'm very sorry for you and your 'nanas.... But is it normal to reach such freezing temps in Florida ??? It is supposed to be a subtropical area.... __________________ ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------

12-16-2010, 12:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
John O John O John O's Photo Gallery Location: Largo, Fl. Find me on the map! Zone: 9 Name: John O Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12 BananaBucks : 5,403 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2 Times Was Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Tuesday night / Wednesday early morning was bad for me also. All my Canna have collapsed, most / all Thai Black burned, all Siam ruby burned, all Misaluki burned, all Dwarf Cavendish burned, all Basjool burned, all Ensete Maurelii burned collapse plus even Arboricola Trinette got frost burn on the tips. I was hoping for a better winter in Fl. (Pinellas County) this year. Doesn't look good for the nursery if spring isn't a bang out year. John

12-17-2010, 08:21 AM	#18 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 476,021 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Apparently I had some frost in my backyard, which I don't believe has happened since 1989. I've noticed some of the grass has dried out and died and the broadleaf weeds are black. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

12-17-2010, 10:17 AM	#19 (permalink)
TommyMacLuckie Howboutcha! TommyMacLuckie's Photo Gallery Location: Mandeville, Louisiana Find me on the map! Zone: 8B Name: Tommy Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 427 BananaBucks : 213,056 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 7 Times Was Thanked 375 Times in 202 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Last night burned bad Nicolas, I looked up the weather history for your area and it was the morning of December 15th it got down to 30F. That's pretty bad for that far south. It got down to 26F here in Mandeville, LA (only 35 in New Orleans). I've been cleaning up dead banana fronds - thousands of 'em - for days now. I'll be finishing up all the tall stuff today. It's a lot of work but only for a few days. All the fruit that was out got zapped. 99% of what got badly damaged in January did not get to mature at all this year. And now approximately 11 months to the day? later, another zapper. Where is the so called global "warming" when it seems we're just getting colder and colder spells like this? Where is this supposed La Nina that gives the SE US a warmer and wetter winter on average? All worthless myths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was playing on the beach in Fort Lauderdale in...1977? 1979? when it snowed. I was just a kid.

12-17-2010, 02:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 476,021 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Last night burned bad We tend to have some incredible microclimates along the lake shore. There is a weather station about a mile from the lake that measured 30, the one at my work which is 5 miles from the lake measured 25. At my house about 200' from the lake shore it was 34. The closest official weather station to my farm measured 34 as well, but it is about 2 miles south. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
I had a dream last night...	Gardener972	Cold Hardy Bananas	17	05-13-2009 03:05 PM
Day or Night	Worm_Farmer	Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer	1	02-01-2009 11:19 AM
last night...	mskitty38583	Tiki Hut	19	05-14-2008 01:45 PM
Girls Night Out last night...	AnnaJW	Tiki Hut	9	12-30-2007 09:59 PM
Night Blooming Cereus	ClevelandCATHY	Other Plants	5	10-01-2007 03:00 PM