Panaroma

I'm kind of new here on the forum, so hi to u all.

I've got a sikkimensis,now in winter and he still looks good, unlike the previous winter. The stems are protected well by allowing air to circullate & keep them dry.

The guy who sold me the musaspecie told me it can flower by 2 to 2.50m height. They are now 1.80m. and I'dd like to achieve my own sikkimensis seeds. I think they can get a lot more hardy by trying this.
I read once that a herbal plant can adjust to an entire different klimat after 7 to 8 generations. Also, there would be a significant difference in some of the seeds after one or two generations. In another book about trees i read that there is a big genetic difference between the seeds of the trees on the northern side of a mountain and the southern part. The southern ones wouldn't be a good choice to sow on the northern part.

If i get my sikkimensis to flower i also want to try and pollinate with different species so maybe i can grow my own hybride. I live not that far of a botanicall garden, so with a bit of luck...

Does anyone here on the forum has any experience with musa cross pollination. I've read that helen hybrid also has sikkimensis genes.
I try to find out some guidelines. How many times one should pollinate a flower to become hybridseeds,how long does the powder conserve in a bag.

Thanks,

Gunther
Brussels, Belgium

Gabe15

Hello Gunther and welcome to our group.

I personally have experience with Musa hybridization and am currently involved in a breeding program. M. sikkimensis is a rather large species, I dont think it would normally flower at 2m (also, all banana heights are always measured by the pseudostem of the plant, so a plant is said to be 2m, may well be over 4m with leaves in the air). M. sikkimensis should get to 3-4m before flowering (pseudostem height). Your plants will not become hardier by generation just by growing it at your house for 7-8 generations, in the wild natural selection would evolve the plant to adapt the new climate but for home growers this would not happen unless you had many-many plants all flowering at once and they could grow wild. Now as for cross pollination, I suppose with enough crosses you might be able to produce hardier bananas, but you would only achieve this by crossing it with other hardy species. Banana pollen does not store very well, the method with the best results would be to remove the male flowers of the male parent and immediately transfer the pollen to the female flowers of the female parent (after pollination, it would take 3-4months to be able to harvest seed in the best growing conditions). The longest you might be able to store it is 3 days (I think) in a refridgerator before it is not viable anymore.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

mrbungalow

There is a picture of a flowering sikkimensis in Great Britain at the ukoasis.
The plant seems surprinsingly small to be flowering.

http://www.pbase.com/theukoasis/image/49992796

__________________

jeffreyp

Gabe, are you doing this in proxy or do you have a large greenhouse out where you live?

Gabe15

I have a small greenhouse and also grow plants throughout my house. I do however have some other people who perform hybrids for me or send pollen from different varieties to me. I am in the first phase of my own program and will be presenting it at some science fairs and stuff from March-April. From there it will continue on until I feel Ive produced the plants I'm aiming towards.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Panaroma

hello Gabe15,

Thanks for helping me out here. I'm quite happy that some are breeding own hybrids too. Not far from here is a university (Leuven) and they are worldfamous for there bananacultivars, mostly resistent to tropical diseases. Now, these are all tropical species, so they are produced to grow in Africa. No plants for cold zones thus.

Too bad, too few people try to create cold tolerant, hardy species. I believe that it's possible to eventually create a hybrid that's quite hardy and produces good fruits in a short circle of time. For the benefit of us all, no?

Something i didn't quite understand though; you speak of male flowers and female flowers. Is there a difference between those two. I've been making some crosses of citrus but i know, its not the same. Also, you speak of pollinating a flower just once? Is that enough pollen to create the hybrid?

I'm fascinated by the possible hybrids and how they would look,have to wait a while i guesse. What hybrids did you already create, or have in mind? The ultimate hybrid for me would be a musa sikkimensis x ingens.

Also thanks to Erlend for the picture of the blooming sikkimensis. Mine was aprox that size but i had to cut of a meter to let him fit in the mini greenhouse that i put around it. When freezing i switch on the lighttube of iguesse 10 m. When not freezing good ventilation. This year it seems to work (no rot).

Greetings,

Gunther, Brussels

Gabe15

Yes Gunther, I was just thinking you are very near the official banana capital of the world in Leuven. That is where the world banana genebank is held and they have samples of nearly every edible banana known as well as many wild species.

There is a big difference between male and female flowers. The female flowers are the first ones to appear and they are the ones that turn into bananas. Male flowers come later and fall off after about a day, but many hundreds are produced and there are always fresh male flowers each day. All you need to do is collect pollen from the male flowers and cover the stigma of the female flower just once.

My breeding project involves creating very quick flowering, small edible bananas. These could be potentially grown in cold areas during the warm months and possibly flower and fruit in the short amount of time.

Cold hardy edible bananas could be made, but as with any edible banana breeding, its not as easy as just cross pollination and growing the seeds. It usually takes many years and thousands of trials to get it right. M. sikkimensis could be a good candidate for crossing with edibles, the best in my mind though are the cold hardy Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana wild varieties but they are not available commercially yet. Also Musa yunnanensis has great potential.

Musa ingens in itself is most likely a hardy banana, however it needs a constant highland-like climate, so it cannot tolerate hot summers and cold winters like M. basjoo or M. sikkimensis. Also M. ingens is very unlikely to cross with other banana species, except possibly other varieties of M. ingens.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

mrbungalow

Gabe, they (The Musacea) say Musa Flaviflora might be a form of Musa Acuminata "colla". It's distribution is Bhutan, and it is said to be "the" most northern growing banana in the world.

Would this be a candidate for a hardy type of musa acuminata?

Erlend

__________________

Gabe15

Musa flaviflora is more or less unknown. It can best be described as an intermediate species between Eumusa and Rhodochlamys. All official samples of it are long since dead, so its hard to say what is M. flaviflora from the selection of plants that exist today. Any affinity with Musa acuminata on the subspecies level is more or less speculation and not based on current field work, plus in my opinion its different enough to be granted species status, although it might tend to be closer to Musa acuminata than other species and may well be closely related. The closest carefully documented plant of M. flaviflora that has been found was in NW Yunnan. Its not certain whether this really is the same plant as the original descriptions but its definetly close. I would not think of this species being of any special cold hardyness as compared to the truly highland species out there. The Musa acuminata variety I was refering to was one described to me that grows at a very high altitude (8000ft if I remember right) but is not described yet. Also there are Musa balbisiana varieties that grow naturally in areas with annual snowfall of up to 6in.

See this link for more information on Musa flaviflora.

http://tag.inibap.org/viewtopic.php?t=37

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Panaroma

Hi there,

I'm very interested in the two high-altitude varieties of balbisiana and acuminata. I've heard from a German, he has good results with the balbisiana. Would there be differences in hardyness in Balbisiana.

The acuminata is Very Interesting!! Only, I've been reading its not that cold tolerant at all. Gabe, have u got any idea where I could find these two hardy musas of high altitude? I really want those now i've read about it!

Erlend, question; i'm thinking of ordering a load of helens hybrid-seeds. Do they germinate as good as sikkimensis? You use fluc. temps on them too. Is the growing speed the same as sikkimensis?

Greetz,
Gunther

Gabe15

The varieties I mentioned are not available for sale anywhere, they are in the wild and there have been no seeds collected for sale for any nurseries. There are many varieties of Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana, but there is only a very small amount of Musa acuminata varieties available on the market and even less Musa balbisiana.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Panaroma

Anychance of u knowing where they grow in their natural habitat. They know both the hardy species (balbisiana, accuminata) actually exist, right? It would be a nice concept for a project!
A while now I'm thinking about taking a trip to the Himalayan High-altitudes, I guesse it'll be April, May. I'm fascinated by the subtropical landscapes and especially by the rich flora that grows overthere.

Gunther