chong

If the Texas Star is not a real variety, then so would the Ca Gold be. They both came from the same general area of Texas. Check out the write up of Pitangadiego regarding the CA Gold in his Encanto Farms website (Reprinted in its entirety. I took the liberty of breaking them up into pertinent paragraphs for clarity):

CALIFORNIA GOLD

DESCRIPTION:
There is one fruiting banana that bears fruit consistently year after year. It was grown and identified by Jeff Earl in Modesto. It can survive 20 F temperature and still bears delicious fruit the summer that follows.

Jeff calls this California Gold Banana. I suspect that it is a cold-hardy mutation of dwarf orinoco cultivar growing prolificly in the high altitude and low temperature areas around Mexico and Texas.

Here's a quote from one of the lucky winners of eBay when Jeff auctioned his pup:

"Rare Dwarf banana plant that is proven to be the cold hardiest of all edible fruit-producing bananas in Northern California. An excellent cold hardy sport of dwarf orinoco, distantly related to Bluggoe. For more than 10 years, this banana has consistently produced an average of 25 lbs of good tasting yellow fruit in Northern California, thus nicknamed ‘California Gold’ - a real cold hardy fruit producer. Exceptionally frost hardy compared to other bananas, produces good fruit, year after year, without any frost protection.

Only a few banana plants might equal the cold hardiness of California Gold, such as the inedible Japanese fiber banana Musa basjoo. Cavendish type banana plants such as Super Dwarf, Williams and Double Mahoi, and most of the other edible banana plants will freeze to the ground and die during the cold winter spells when left outside without any winter protection. The California Gold banana shakes off the cold. It may lose its' leaves after a hard freeze, but then continues to grow when the weather warms in the spring. The leaves lost during the winter don’t seem to slow this plant down.

California Gold have produced tasty bananas outdoors during the summer after enduring winter low temp in the low 20’s! These plants should be able grow fine in USDA zone 7 and above as an outdoor plant. They have been fruited as far north as Washington State and British Columbia with only minor winter protection.

The mature plant is small only 5-6 ft tall. Some of plants have produced fruit in as early as 11 months from a pup. This exotic looking plant makes a stunning tropical impression in any garden as well as a lovely indoor potted plant. Delicious fruits rival any store bought fruit in quality and flavor, with just a hint of lemon and strawberry. (“)

“I’m dying to get hold of this very rare banana that has just been shared by Jeff Earl after more than 20 years of testing in Modesto. (906)

[L]et me clarify a few things. #1 ... Is the banana that I call California gold one in the same as Dwarf Orinoco? ... Answer, I honestly don't know. My guess is that they are in the same family... as is Ice Cream, Blue Java , Blugo etc. It was labeled "Hardy Mexican Apple banana". But the guy I bought it from said that he gave it the name. The fruit looks like its' in the Orinoco family. It has fruited at 4 ft tall and as high as 7 ft. I bought the parent banana before anyone ever mentioned Dwarf Orinoco or even regular Orinoco. Bananas are one plant that mutate very easily. So I gave it the name.

It does differ a little from dwarf orinocos in that they are generally all 6 ft tall when fruiting size. To me Cal Gold fruit is a little more rounded. As far as frost hardiness... They seem simular. Though CA gGold is generally the first to start growing in the spring... about the same time as Musa Basjoo.

While I have thought about tissue culturing this banana,I haven't looked into it yet. I'm still not sure that it is any cold hardier than Orinoco. Our temps haven't been cold enough to compare the two side by side. As for Cal Gold's hardiness, about all that I can say is that in my garden, it seems about right on par with musa Basjoo and Orinoco. Both tend to freeze right at the same temps as well as recover at the same time in the spring after a freeze.

As I said before, CaGold Looks like its' in the same family as Orinoco, Blugoe, and Blue Java. As It has been stated before.... Bananas mutate readily, but I doubt that is much more frost hardier unless frost hardiness characteristic mutates within a cultivar as well.

Those of you in the cooler zones will have to try it and let me know. I most likely will be back on Ebay selling pups next spring. As always the min. bid will be a reasonable $19 per 2 ft pup. I rarely have enough pups from the 3 plants that I grow to supply the demand. This tends to send the bidding up to silly levels at times. (914)

California Gold - I think is a sport or a favorable mutation of Dwarf Orinoco. This was recognized by Jeff Earl, but still we don't have genetic proof that it is a sport. The main difference is that the California Gold consistently fruits every year in the Central Valley unlike the regular Dwarf Orinoco which require proper timing for successful fruiting.

California Gold has been shown by Jeff to bloom and fruit even after the record breaking cold spell in the Central Valley when the night time temperature reaches 10 to 12 deg F and most pipes broke about a decade ago. Most other growers scoff at Jeff Earl: that [what] he is selling is still Dwarf Orinoco because the fruit and taste are really no different. Especially if you are growing this plant in Zone 10 and above, then there is really no added benefit.

But because of the consistency of fruit production, this I think is something to consider for us here in the north. I bought California Gold at an eBay auction and it was really pricey, the price for a small pup ranged between $35-$115. Nevertheless, I also have the original Dwarf Orinoco and is now comparing it side by side with California Gold.(???)

Here's my research on California Gold: Rare Dwarf banana plant that is proven to be the cold hardiest of all edible fruit-producing bananas in Northern California. An excellent cold hardy sport of dwarf orinoco, distantly related to Bluggoe. For more than 10 years, this banana has consistently produced an average of 25 lbs of good tasting yellow fruit in Northern California, thus nicknamed “California Gold - a real cold hardy fruit producer”.

I don`t think there is any thing special or rare about this banana plant. I don't think its' a mutation of Dwarf Orinoco. I think it IS Dwarf Orinoco. It is NOT a dessert type supermarket banana. It has to be VERY ripe if you want just peel it and eat it.

It`s a great banana for cool areas. If you can`t get one from Jeff, you might try getting one from Going Bananas. (913)

Jeff Earl also has a dwarf orinoco but is not as cold hardy as his California Gold. If you know about CRFG, some folks there confirmed that there is a big cold hardiness difference between dwarf orinoco and "California Gold" I also have dwarf orinoco which got wiped out during the record breaking cold spell sometime in the early 90's, but Jeff's banana shook off that record breaking cold spell in the valley. (906)

TYPE:
GENETICS:
HEIGHT: 5-6' (906), 6' (914)
HIGHLIGHTS: Cold-hardiness.

harveyc

Chong, there was a long heated discussion about California Gold here at IBS which is where Jon got those comments from. It got ugly, IMO, and I'd rather not see that all brought up again. Most people that have California Gold and Dwarf Orinoco noted differences. I don't know of anyone that has made such a comparison with Texas Star, on the other hand. It's great that you had an apparent good experience with Ty Ty recently, but many people have been ripped off by them.

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chong

I know about the discussions about the CA Gold. But my only point in bringing this up is because it seems that one vendor chooses to name his banana one thing, another vendor can't name his banana differently. In other words, the name CA Gold is no more a variety than the Texas Star, based on Bigdog's premise. The fact that Jeff Earl has more credibility with his customers than Ty Ty Nursery doesn't make his banana a variety, and Ty Ty's is not. TTN has been selling Texas Star since 1984, and I believe that's a lot longer than Jeff selling his CA Gold.

And how do we know if the Texas Star is an Orinoco if nobody wants to buy it from the only place that sells it? Or, am I to understand that there are members of this organization that actually bought, raised, and fruited one, so, in fact, can compare it with an Orinoco? To begin with, I posted photos of the pups and corm that I received from TTN. Has anyone bothered to see if they look like an Orinoco? I have. And they don't. At least not like the Orinocos that I got from Agristarts.

I clearly underscored in the article the author's statement where he called his banana CA Gold because that's what Jeff called it. This, and his later statements, to me implies that author himself does not know of any banana variety with that name. In fact, the author specifically states that in his opinion "it IS an Orinoco (sic)". That is the true variety because that name is an accepted varietal name in the international banana growing community. Neither "CA Gold", "TX Star", nor "CA Hardy" are.

I realize that 99.9999% of the people out there may be pissed off at Ty Ty Nursery. I will not argue that point. The point I'm arguing about is the reference to the type of banana that I bought. "The vendor gave the plants I bought that name. So, that's what I called it." Otherwise, in the same context as the CA Gold, what else should I call it?

Remember when a lot of people were complaining about the prices of someone either selling the AeAe or the CA Gold. Calling them greedy, etc. I don't know if I remember correctly, but I thought it was you who said that we should not be calling people names just because the Seller was trying to get as much as he can. That if we thought it was too expensive then just don't buy from him. I think that in some ways this situation is the same.

I wanted to believe that the Texas Star is as cold hardy as what the vendor says it is. That's why I wanted to buy some. I don't care if it is an Orinoco. I just care that it will be hardy as they say it is, and that they will produce edible fruits. If in the end, it proves otherwise, at least I won't be losing sleep, wondering if it was one way or the other.

harveyc

Chong, bringing in California Gold into the discussion just gets the discussion off-topic. The way you've quoted those comments also confuses who is saying what. Those comments were taken directly from IBS and made by more than one person, not all the same person, though it appears to be all from one source when posted in that manner. I hope that thread doesn't get brought back to the top, but I'll post the link to it Last California Gold of the year!!! (PLEASE don't post to this thread, there are too many ugly comments there).

If you've noted a difference between Texas Star and Dwarf Orinoco, that's great and that should be the basis for responding to Frank, IMHO. There is no need to make the comparison to California Gold to call it something else. It seems akin to complaining to mom that she let another child get away with doing something she's scolding you for.

BTW, I'm still awaiting an e-mail from you re: chestnuts (check your PM).

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PT DUffy

Yes! Sometimes you'll get not only twigs instead of trees, you'll get something not even close!
Cheers,
Pat

chong

Update on the 5 Texas Star bananas that I ordered from Ty Ty Nursery last September. Photo is of the lone survivor. Hence, it's affectionately dubbed, "Texas Lone Star". Photo taken last Saturday 04/25/2009. It started to show some growth 2 weeks before that, but I didn't think there was anything that would be growing since the soil was pretty dry. I watered it profusely since exhibiting growth. But every morning it would be dry. Digging through the soil showed that all that watering only watered the top and sides of the pot soil. So, I soaked the pot in half pot height water for 8 hours, and capillary action took care of the upper half. The photo shows how wet the soil is after I removed it from the water basin.



Now comes the test for a replacement for the others. Unfortunately, I misplaced my invoice. But, I've got until September to find it.

chong

New Update!

By chance, I was looking at both the TyTy TX Star and the Texas TX Star, and I was pleasantly surprised to see the similarities between the two. So it became a photo-op and here is what I saw:

TyTy Front>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TyTy Back


Texas Front>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Texas Back


LEAF CLOSE-UPS:
TyTy Back>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Texas Back


Note: The Texas plant is 3/4 the size of the TyTy plant. In both plants, the back of the leaves and the stems are waxy. Leaf margins have red trim. During the Winter, the TyTy pot is right next to the sliding door from the dining room but inside the greenhouse(where it is currently), while the Texas pot was between the sliding door and the perimeter glass.

harveyc

Great shots and comparison, Chong!

Thanks,

Harvey

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supermario

Guys..before I say anything, I am assuming this is the site you are discussing(http://www.tytyga.com) I am sorry, but I am SHOCKED that anyone would buy anything from Ty Ty Nursery. That site had me reeling in laughter when I stumbled upon it one day. I actually called a friend of mine at work and made him look for the site so we could laugh at it together.

The site features bunches of poorly photoshopped pics of models and fruit trees. In the banana page.. If you scroll down, you'll see a banana bunch photoshopped right next to some guy's package in his little yellow swim underwear!! LMAO!!!! The home page had some lady in her bra staring out to nowhere in front of a bowl of persimons. My absolute favorite though...was in the shade trees section. I just checked and they seem to have removed the pic, but it was a picture of some half naked guy with a christmas hat on..in this same pic, there is some sort of leaf photoshopped to cover his croch area.. AND he is smiling and pointing towards that area. Did they get that pic from playgirl or something?? LMAO!! You owe it to yourself to browse this site once, just do as I do and don't take them seriously. They seem to have toned it down a bit, so it may not be quite as rediculous as when I first stumbled on it.

If you want bananas...go to a serious site that focuses on their plants and service as opposed to making their site look more like a brothel than a nursery. - Welcome to Going Bananas of Homestead, Florida! - is my #1 choice. If you want other tropicals as well as bananas...try the pine island nursery(also in FL) - Pine Island Nursery, Tropical fruit trees, akee, all spice, ambarella, annona, avocado, cherry, bay leaf, black pepper, caimito, canistel, carambola, cashew, coconut, coffee, curry leaf, grumichama, guava, jaboticaba, jakfruit, longan, loquat, lychee

supermario

WOW...I recently had found a similar site(which was a shock to me) called aaron's farms. I noticed they were based in Georgia and began to wonder about the locals there...but it turns out that aaron's and tyty are the same people! After doing just a little research, I found tons of negative reviews on Amazon.com. Pretty scary. It seems these guys should be shut down and thrown in jail.

harveyc

Mario, we've had other threads to laugh at TyTy's site and photos. They do have a variety called Texas Star widely-reputed to be quite cold hardy which you won't see Don offering at Going-Bananas. Ty Ty is well known for shipping incorrect varieties, etc., but Chong took a chance and seems to have done well here. He also has comments in the Veinte Cohol thread which makes it clear his experience with Going-Bananas was not as good as he would have liked, though it's clear they do have a good reputation. In my opinion, Pine Island is not a very good choice for those that live in areas that require a phytosanitary certificate. The fee there is $50 and Pine Island assesses an additional fee of 50% of the plant cost to clean up the plants so that they will pass inspection. I'd rather look at ridiculous photos than have my money taken from me like that.

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supermario

Well stated. I personally am willing to pay a little extra to make sure that I get a quality product. What is cheap now, will cost you more in the long run.

I don't have to worry about the phyto, but I know it costs at least $35. Why Pine Island charges a little extra, I don't know...but, their feedback speaks for itself. When you compare the feedback of the two companies, I would not consider the extra investment a waste of money...more like insurance. Also, the PI site is informative and well put together.

I find it hard to believe that TyTy is the only source for the banana you are looking for. I received a mystery plant that was supposed to be a manzano from bananatree.com (another company with a bad reputation, but not the wonderful photos) If you like to gamble, give them a try.. I believe they are based in PA. I'm sorry I could not be more helpful.

supermario

Where are they??

harveyc

I just used the search function and came up with several hits. Here's a good one: Funny pictures from Tyty-Nursery

Chong, sorry about helping divert your thread off-topic!

Harvey

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chong

I mentioned before that based on my experience with the two companies, ordering from Going Bananas was more of a leap of faith than from TyTy. Until recently, my experience with TyTy has been more pleasant than GB. Also, I've stated before that I'm not promoting nor discrediting neither one. The difference between relating one's experience and expressing amazement by someone who heard or read otherwise, is that one is based on fact, while the other is based on faith. Sometimes, people take what they believe to be fact. In most cases, they're probably right. But, I never completely agreed with the adage that "Seeing is Believing". I always thought that "Seeing is Knowing".

It's easy for you to say that because you are fortunate to live in an area where you have multiple other choices for things that you like that we in the North do not have. But if this were a forum for wine grapes, no doubt, the situation will be reversed for members in your area. The point is that if you are willing to spend more money on insurance and preparation for something that you like than the item itself, means that you really want to have it. What then, if that item is not available from your reputable source, but only from one that appears to be the scourge of the industry? But what if this scourge gave you reasonable service in the past? If you are not willing to take a chance with this vendor, then you probably just don't really want it.

I have dealt with many other vendors since the 70s, including the ones you mentioned. Michigan Bulb Co., Mellinger's, Van Bourghondien, etc. At some point or another, they have given me reasonable service, if not good service. When many people complain about them, as long as they have what I want, AND they continue to provide reasonable service, I will not hesitate to do business with them. For me, such is the case with your two dreaded companies.

In the early 70s, Banana Tree was my only source of banana plants, Cananga seeds and Manihot seeds. In fact, they were not perfect. But when I had a problem, a letter (yes, slug mail) or phone call to them, and the Owner responded with and apology and proposal for corrective action. The same is true with TyTy for me. Sure, you find their ads very provincial. But you looked at them, didn't you? And did you happen to notice the prices while you were laughing at pictures? I did. That's when I saw how much the price of the TX Star dropped. After all, isn't that the purpose of any ad?

There's been a lot of bad press with Mellinger's before they closed. I don't know why, because I bought a lot of plants from them and they were great. I still have a Fejoa that I ordered from them over 30 years ago. And if I hadn't been traveling for work a lot 20 years ago, I would still have Loquats and other guavas that I ordered from them.

On the other hand, if an item were available from other sources, personally, I would think twice before ordering from a reputable source where my experience was less than pleasant. Unfortunately, there are two such companies in the Miami area, Homestead, specifically.

chong

No problem, Harvey. It's not so off topic since the focus is the source of the plant that is unique to them. At least for me, discussing the source is important because it might result in someone coming out with either new sources, or from others who might have ordered the plant from TyTy and have pups to trade, give, or sell.

If you can find more reliable sources for TX Star, I'm sure that there are at least a hundred members who will be grateful to you if you care to share them with us. In fact, such information could possibly bring the demise of this company, unless they do a strong, plausible public relations blitzkrieg .

I have found two other sources, both from TX and both through eBay, of TX Star. The first one was a joke. To begin with, they describe their plant to grow over 25 feet, clearly different from TyTy's. And they sent me only water sprouts, that struggled for 2 years, then died. I was their first and only customer. After that first ad on eBay, I never saw them again. The second one was referred to me by Scot (Chironix), and I bought out the remaining stock at that particular auction, then bought all three of the following one. These were not quite water sprouts, though not quite sword pups, either. I have not seen her ad since then, also.

I have been following the TX Star since the early 70's. Discovering that there was such a thing as a CA Gold, diverted my attention to that one for a while since they were initially cheaper than TX Star. When their prices rose, I started looking at the TS again and was pleasantly surprised that their prices have dropped.

There is a certain member here that would have a serious heartburn if I were to discuss what I think about the origins and the relationship between CA Gold and the TX Star, so I won't go there. But if you can reveal a good, reliable, and cheaper source for either or both varieties, you will be considered a hero by a good many members here.

harveyc

You did just go there by bringing up this speculative subject. I believe there is no value in speculating about what may or may not be the relationship since I believe nobody can provide any credible evidence one way or the other without DNA testing or extensive growing comparisons. It's just not worth it to do either, IMO.

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sunfish

Banana Trees Banana Plants
Sells banana trees and plants including Ice Cream, Dwarf Red, ... Often called the 'Texas Star' and the "California Gold" - a real cold hardy fruit producer. ...Banana Trees Banana Plants - 127k - Cached


I am not saying this is right,but I thought I would throw this in.

ron_mcb

if i really need something and ty ty was my last option i would make sure i drive down there and pick it out myself.they will not handle or ship my order if i can help it.. if its bananas im buying,i would tell em i want to go to their plot and personally dig it myself. i want to get the pup from the mat after i look it over. i dont want to pay for mystery bananas.

i trust them as far as i can throw one of them. im sorry its just the truth.

chong i dont go to tifton/tyty regularly but if you really wanted a big corm i would have done my best to aquire one and ship it to you. we could have worked out something if i had known. i am a good drive up the interstate from em.at least that way you would have had more peace of mind. you have really wanted one for a while huh? wow.

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naw mek smaddi ditate fi yuh. naw wan gwan a pawty yuh naggo.

chong

That's strictly conjecture on their part. Tell that to a certain member here and see what his reaction is. Ha! Ha! I doubt if they've actually done a side by side comparison themselves. In fact, if you read their description of most of their bananas, they're pretty much copied from various other sites. But if you want to believe their speculation, I guess your quest can stop there. It's not biggie, for me. As long as I've wanted to have one of them, I'd rather experience it myself and not rely on faith at this time. As I said, "Seeing is Knowing."