JoeReal

Musa ingens

See for yourself

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens003.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens002.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens004.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens001.htm


And I have just found my shipment of 10 seeds of Musa ingens. I thought I lost them. I hope they are still viable.

So what's the best technique to germinate these mostly unknown seeds. Simulate the cold elevated rainforest conditions of PNG?

JoeReal

Here's more info:


http://www.pacificbiological.org.au/...3/pbf_02_3.htm

http://uk.geocities.com/bananaswap/PlantPictures.htm


This is the largest and tallest of the bananas and, presumably, the largest non-woody plant in the world.

Simmonds notes that, like other montane species, it does not thrive in tropical Trinidad. Although tropical highlands are rather specialised habitats the poor growth of the plant in the lowland tropics suggests that it might grow in more temperate climes should it become available.

Placed in the newly created section Ingentimusa by Argent 1967 Musa ingens was transferred to section Musa 2 [Eumusa 2] by Simmonds & Weatherup 1990 despite its anomalous chromosome number. Following Jong & Argent 2001 the plant is returned to the Ingentimusa.

The full description from Simmonds 1960 is as follows:

Plants huge, the pseudostems 10-15 m. tall and 2 m. in girth at the base, sparsely suckering; juice watery; sheaths waxy below, tinged reddish brown above; petioles up to 60 cm. long, deeply channeled above with erect and slightly scarious margins; leaves up to 5 x 1 m.; inflorescence huge, pendulous borne on a massive glabrous peduncle 10 cm. in diameter; basal hands very numerous (ca. 20), each bearing 16-25 hermaphrodite flowers; hermaphrodite flowers, the ovary 5-6 x 1-2-1.4 cm., angular, slightly tapered above and below, trilocular with biseriate ovules, the compound tepal 4.5 cm. long, thickened at the back angles, and surmounted by 5 deep (2 cm.) lobes, the outermost pair of major lobes bearing awn-like processes 7 mm. long, the inner lobes shortly (2 mm.) apiculate, the free tepal about 3 cm. long, oblong, raggedly obtuse-mucronate at the apex, hardly tapered towards the base, somewhat thickened at the back and transversely wrinkled-corrugated in the upper two thirds of its length, the style massive, about 4 mm. thick surmounted by an irregularly shaped but not greatly swollen stigma, the stamens 5, somewhat shorter than the stigma; bracts of the basal hands deciduous, oblong, subobtuse, ca. 34 x 18 cm., somewhat fleshy-leathery, and apparently not so brittle as the male bracts; male axis massive, ca. 1 m. long at time of bunch maturity, with very prominent bract insertion scars; male bud massive, oblong to subglobose, the component bracts loosely packed and not imbricate at the tip; male bracts deciduous, very broadly ovate 21 x 17 cm., rounded at the apex, shallowly dish-shaped and slightly hooded at the tip, thin, leathery-brittle (not toughly fibrous) in texture, dull greyish-purple and shiny without, pale in colour within; male flowers 20-25 per bract, biseriate, each 7 cm. x 5-6 mm. overall, the abortive ovary 8 mm. long, the compound tepal 6 cm. long, strongly thickened along the two angles, deeply (4 mm.) 5 (i.e. 3 + 2)-toothed and tinged with orange-yellow at the apex, the free tepal 3 cm. long, oblanceolate, rounded and ragged-mucronate at the apex, tapered and slightly thickened at the back towards the base, the stamens 5, with anther 2.5 cm. long and filament 2 cm. long, elongating at anthesis; fruit-bunch massive, about 20 hands of 16-25 fruits each, very compact, estimated to weigh about 60 kg.; mature fruits massive, ca. 18 x 3-4 cm., largest towards the base of the bunch, tapering below into the short (2 cm.) pedicel, rounded or shortly and bluntly acuminate at the apex, devoid of floral remnants, lightly angled and somewhat flattened on the faces opposed to neighbours in development, pale in colour; seeds smoothly angular in outline, very variable in shape as a result of compression between neighbours, dark brown to black, ca. 7 mm. in mean diameter (4-10 mm.) with a deep (2 mm.) hilar cavity but lacking an umbo opposite the hilum; somatic chromosome number 2n = 14.

Gabe15

Just to let you know, when seeds were collected on the 1989 PNG mission by INIBAP, they got 0% germination by traditional methods and another 0% after embryo rescue germination. Simmonds was extremely lucky to have only a very small amount come up and then they eventually died under the full tropical conditions at the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad. Conclusion: I got 50 and we never know who will be the lucky one!

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Bonheur

What methods are you using to try to get these to germinate? When did you start?

Gabe15

I started a few months ago. Im trying the normal, soak for 2 days and plant, but Im trying them in all sorts of locations around my house that vary in temperature.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

sean

Gabe - want me to test out a few seeds in south florida conditions?

Tropicallvr

I have some seeds too, and am wondering what the temp fluctuation must be up there in those mountains.
So far not luck with my heat mat on fluctuating temps. I wonder how the guy you mentioned did it?
I bet once they sprouted they would do good here on the foggy coast.

bananalover

You know I have no problem sprouting seeds. I have read a lot about the problems but just never encountered any. Most musa sprout within a couple weeks as long a I plant them in the middle of summer leading me to believe most sprout real well with 90's during the day and middle 70's at night.

JoeReal

Thanks for the encouragement bananlover! If I were to guess about Musa ingens requirement, it might involve acidic stratification, with prolonged moisture and then sunlight exposure under humid environment and warm temperature.

Acidic, because most soils and decaying matter in the tropical forest with relatively high rainfall. Also the fruit pulps when being decayed away by molds or fungi may have some role, nevertheless, they also create acidic environments. Naturally for bananas, high moisture and warmer temperature are favorable for seed germination. The sunlight exposure may break down the inhibitors that would indicate a clearing that needs to be exploited and fast else other seeds would colonize faster, taking note that this banana is competing in an elevated tropical rainforest setting. Perhaps some very slight chilling stratification as well, that perhaps in the 55 to 65 deg F range or whatever fits the coolest temperature season to signal change in the monsoon rains.

Tropicallvr

This year is my first trying outside planting(without heat mat fluctuations which seems to work good). So far nothing, but it's only been a couple weeks. Hopefully some of the straglers will come up.
Joe seems to be closing in on a good theory for the M.ingens, because I doubt it gets above 90 in the highlands.
If anyone get's some to sprout, do share your experience.

Tropicallvr

OH yeah, some high altitude palms resent high night time temps and die, so maybe this is also the case with M.ingens plants.

Chironex

Does anyone have a site to get M. Itinerans var. Gigantea/Xishuangbannaensis? I have been looking all over the net for them, but no luck yet. I must be a glutton for punishment because I am also seeking Ingens seed. I found some, but who knows how many will be needed to get just one plant?
PM me if you find a source, please!

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Scot

proletariatcsp

Ok I'm starting to understand the whole novelty of it, having a banana as tall as a tree. And knowing myself I'd probably have to grow it just to see if I could. Only, I worry that here in FL that thing wouldn't have the natural wind protection that it does in its habitat, and sadly it would just get ripped to shreds or uprooted. Then, of corse, there is the problem of fetching off the bananas from 40 feet up. That too is another thing I don't get about these herbs, I mean, its not like the nanners are any bigger you know? Well maybe the bunch is somewhat larger, and that epic 3ft inflorescense I mean come on. How could I bring myelf to orphan something in such terrible soil, knowing there is nothing but sand and dense muck only 6 inches down. This thing is gonna need at least 5ft of really nice black stuff. Anything less would just be torture to its roots. Trying to hold onto those enormous, 20ft beautiful green leaves. Way up there just bouncing on the air shading everything 3 stories beneath. Wow. . . *zzzzz*. . .huh? Ah heck, where can I get one of those for my yard???

proletariatcsp

Wait a sec,

Has anyone considered how much the water bill would be to feed that species? Whoa. I'd bet its close to filling the kiddie pool everynight! LOL

natedogg1026

I stick with my Saba till Gabe TC's the Ingens. LOL!

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Banana's are a safe addiction. Right?Maybe I need classes.

Dean W.

Nate, what's the picture of your avatar.

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Ahava

I know this may sound like an oddball thing everyone. Maybe I'm just spouting nonsense but I had a thought. Do you possibly think that perhaps the reason why they tend to be hard to germinate, and the ones that have died shortly thereafter could be because of the oxygen levels at the lower elevation. I know it sounds odd, but I do know that there are some collectors who grow alpine flowers, and some sub-alpine flowers, but some just won't make it at some lower elevations no matter what people do because of the difference in the air. Some plants seem to be more sensative to such conditions compared to others.

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Gabe15

I'm thinking for the case of M. ingens, it is a temperature related issue. I think this because during the original studies of them, they were able to germinate the (very fresh) seeds fine at sea level, but found they could only keep them alive by bringing potted plants into air conditioning at night. This plant will be introduced to tissue culture very soon (who knows if they will be able to easily grow it though), so maybe everyone can try it out and see where it will grow, because thats the only way we will know for sure.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Tropicallvr

Usally with high elevation palms not surviving in the lower elevations it's due to the lack of night time tempature drop. But the germination part's really puzzeling
What elevation are they from anyways?

Ahava

Thanks for the quick reply. It makes perfect sense. Although I wonder why the plants need to be brought in at night at cooler temperatures. In their natural climate is there a big temperature drop when the sun goes down because of the elevation? Anyhow the oxygen thing was something that was at the edge of my mind because I was recently looking into alpine plants, and alpine houses and such and was going on from what I happened to read there and that it might apply in other situations.

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