PR-Giants

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Hammocked Banana

Keith, was anything done to induce more pupping, or is this just natural growth in your grass clipping pots?

pebeju

The problem with Aeae is not that you cannot multiply shoots. The point is that most of these newly produced shoots wont show variegation ...

PR-Giants

Yes

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PR-Giants

That is some great info, I'm finding that it's difficult to produce all green aeae.
I only have one all green aeae and it seems to only produce variegated aeae.

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Hammocked Banana

Peg it?

PR-Giants

No.

I'll take some photos the next time I do it.

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robguz24

I find mine are mostly variegated, though I've never done anything to induce pupping. Out of maybe 15 pups, I've never gotten an all green one, but have gotten several all white ones. One grew a few feet before I killed it, the others haven't gotten more than several inches before withering away.

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PR-Giants

All of the white ones grew, but really slow. I got tired of water them and tossed them in jungle. I kept one just to find out how long it will live.
It's been in a pot for 5 months and todays a good day to die, I'll take a photo of the corm to see if it was really growing or just dying slowly.

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robguz24

Cool, aw you should see how long you can keep it alive!

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grinflask

I have recently had a discussion on this topic with people selling this kind of variegated Musa Aeae and the argument for the high price of these plants was the difficulties in propagation. As mentioned before, the fact is that it is not more difficult to propagate than any other similar Musa. The problem itself was said to be difficult to mantain the variegated display in the new plants, since only a small portion of them will look like a typical Aeae.

Aeae seems to be a chimera; in other words, they have a mixture of cell in which part of them lack the ability to produce chlorophyll. So, if the new shoot arises from a group of "green" cells, you end up with a fully green plant; if from a "white" group ... a white plant; and if from a mixed "green" and "white" cells ... a true Aeae.

I am surprised to read in your comments that you normally dont find problems to produce variegated pups. This does not fit with the above.

It is perfectly normal that white plants die once they loose their connection with the mother plant, since they are not able themselves to photosynthesize carbohydrates to survive. In theory, the only way to keep them alive would therefore be to give them sugar, and the only way to do so would be under sterile conditions in tissue culture (otherwise all kind of fungus and bacteria will overgrow and kill the plant).

Could be really nice to see a fully white plant in vitro ... and why not, to try also to TC your variegated plants and see if you can keep variegation in the new shoots.

PR-Giants

I have recently had a discussion on this topic with a person growing this kind of variegated Musa Aeae and there was no argument about the high price. The fact is that it is not more difficult to propagate than any other similar Musa, but it is more difficult to propagate than the Musa that are not similar and are easier to propagate, while on the other hand it is much easier to propagate than the Musa that are not similar and are much more difficult to propagate. The problem itself was said to be difficult to propagate but in reality the difficulties come after separation.

Aeae seems to be a chimera; in other words, they have a mixture of cell in which part of them lack the ability to produce chlorophyll. So, if the new shoot arises from a group of "green" cells, you end up with a fully green plant; if from a "white" group ... a white plant; and if from a mixed "green" and "white" cells ... a true Aeae.

I am surprised to read in your comments that you normally listen to and believe salesman that find problems where others find solutions.

It is perfectly normal that white plants die within the first few years after they loose their connection with the mother plant, it appears to be a very traumatic experience. I recently lost a white banana plant 5 months after it lost it's connection with the mother plant. Now that I can reflect on my loss I suddenly realized that the mother plant is still alive and may have witnessed me killing her pup. Since they are not able themselves to photosynthesize carbohydrates to survive I began to theorize a solution while drinking coconut water. In theory, the only way to keep them alive would therefore be to feed and water them, so I choose to do both at the same time by using juego de pseudostem.

FACT

Albinos are more difficult to stabilize after separation.

Hone your technique on albinos and then the variegated ones will seem easy.


REAL PROBLEM WITH AEAE

Too many myths.

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grinflask

Hi PR,

I am glad you do not have problems to propagate them. I am just trying to understand why are they difficult to propagate and have a quiet discussion on this topic.

I understand it might be difficult for variegated and impossible for albinos. Variegated plants (in general) are less competitive than their green counterparts. They are simply less efficient in capturing the energy from the sun light. If I define this efficiency in terms of percentage, albinos are then 100% deficient so they cannot survive alone. In fact, there are not albino plants in nature besides some parasitic ones (Monotropa uniflora, to mention one). Variegated plants can be 10, 20, ... 80, 90% deficient depending on their relative amount between white and green cells.

I normally listen to everyone's point of view. According to me, thats the best way to get the full picture of anything.

Simply starvation. While still attached to the mother plant, they receive what they need to survive, grow, and even to store some food in their tissues, specially in the corm or rhizome, which is a specialized organ for such reserve storage. Once separated they can still survive by using these reserves. Once there is no more food in the "fridge", they die. How long can they stay alive? That will depend on the size of the fridge.

That is the point.

Impossible, I would say.



So lets break them down ...

PR-Giants

Buenas Dia GP,

I've only grown about 30 White Manini over the past several months for research purposes. I had and have no intention to prove or teach anything, this was strictly for my learning. At this moment I believe I collected enough data to move on to my next interest. One minor regret was not weighing the corms after separation to compare with the final examination.

My present interest is how to produce a Green Manini. I was lucky enough to get one from a Variegated Manini, which was less than a 0.5% chance. My GM only produces VM, no GM or WM, now this might not fit with your above salesman discussions but any help might help.

How many GM/VM/WM are you growing?


I think it would be great if you would do a thread on step by step tcing. I've often wondered how many quality plantlets can an average size banana donor plant produce.

Welcome Aboard, I'm very glad you decided to join the Org.

We really do need some quality teachers.

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Hammocked Banana

If u left an albino pup connected to the mother until it fruited, would the fruit also be albino?

grinflask

Hi,

If a green banana plant only produces variegated pups, then it was not a fully-green plant. Its more clear if you think of pups as branches: then a green plant with variegated branches is not a green plant.


I am not growing them, just interested in that myth you mentioned on the difficulties in propagating them. Would like to make a try in TC, anyway.

Do you mean the whole process from shoot tip excision, disinfection, washing, in vitro multiplication, divisions, ...? I guess it should be already posted, even in this subforum...?

Banana TC is normally initiated from shoot tips, so there is 1 per single plant. It is also possible to initiate cultures from male buds, but this method is not routinelly used. If the question was about the number of plants that can be produced from a single plant, then there is not conclusive answer. In theory, you can keep on multiplying. In commercial TC it is not recomended to exceed 1000 plants per single donor in order to reduce the risks of producing mutated plants.

Thanks. Instead of teaching, I would prefer to call it share of knowledge, experiences and ideas from both sides. Glad to be here and learn from you too.

grinflask

Cannot tell you. Have never seen that. Fruit would be white anyway, but dont think they could set fruit. As the pup grows and matures, the connection with the mother plant is gradually lost. I also doubt the mother plant could keep feeding the pup to fruiting size.

robguz24

There is a photo of white fruit in the Kepler & Rust book from such a plant that was not separated.

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Abnshrek

That is some cool looking fruit.. Pg169.. Looks like they could glow in the Dark.. :^)

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