whynot

Hi, all. I was just playing with the thought of creating a cold hardy triploid and am noticing that the available tetraploids seem to be patented. Anyone know if SH-3640 is patented? any other options? As I understand it, using patented material to make a cross is violation of that patent, am I wrong in assuming this? thanks

griphuz

Don't have a clue where, but if something is patented you should be able to look it up on the internet right?

Kind regards,
Remko.

sunfish

sunfish

Though asexual reproduction may be prohibited on a patented cultivar, there is no regulation against using the plant in sexual reproduction. In other words, the seed or pollen from a patented variety may be used without permission of the patent holder. The offspring are free of patent regulations.

What does it mean when nursery plants are patented or trademarked? | Oregon State University Extension Service | Gardening

Richard

Plant patents expire and are not renewable. Here in the U.S. I believe they are 15 years, but that number is worth checking.

Next you have the issue of where the plant is from. Like most fruiting banana cultivars, SH-3640 was not developed in the U.S.

Also with fruiting bananas, esp. tetraploids you have the problem of viable pollen and compatible cross-breeds. Tetraploids are essentially mules.

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whynot

thanks everyone for the input. I hear about monsato sueing folks for trying to illegally save seed and it makes me cringe. Maby it's just my lack of a banana genetics background, but I thought tetraploids were the common basis for generating triploids. I understand that they have low fertility but I should get a few seeds if I try a huge sample with an acceptable diploid parent, right? When I look at the crosses used to develop the triploids, I see a number of crosses with a triploid parent. Wouldn't tetraploid actually be more a more fertile parent? I know it diverges from my first question a bit, but if the tetraploids are basically mules, would trying to induce polyploidy via colchicine give me potential seedless/rarely seeded fruit? thanks again folks it's awesome having a bunch of knowledgeable people to bounce ideas off of. -Ben

Richard

Once you cross two Musas to produce seeds, the question is whether the offspring will be seeded. If you grow it out and find that it is seeded, you'll then have the task of re-crossing to produce a sterile hybrid. A seeded banana is inedible -- or at best a difficult culinary task.

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whynot

yup getting a cold hardy seedless is the goal. Obviously there's no guarantee it would happen, but it certainly won't happen if nobody tries (or not enough people try). Even getting a success in those terms doesn't mean I would end up with a particularly tasty banana. This all seems pretty straightforward. Now I'm starting to wonder if it would just be easier to try and treat a bunch of hardy banana seed with colchicine and induce polyploidy.

according to (these folks who induced polyploidy in Musa via colchicine): link didn't work but if you google "the experimental formation of polyploidy and its effect in the genus musa" a jstor article should pop right up

most of their tetraploids reverted to diploid but they did have plants revert to triploid. Now I'm not sure how long it took these plants to finish their mishmashed genetic free for all, but wouldn't it be cool if all it took to get a seedless cool weather hardy banana was soaking some Musa velutina (not necessarily a large or marketable banana but the same could be tried with M. sikkimensis, M. cheesmani, and helens hybrid) seed in colchicine?

shannondicorse

Ben,

My advice: Don't waste time with tetraploids.

Use male fertile or female fertile cultivar bananas - preferably ABBs-in conjunction with cold hardy wilds of the itinerans and basjoo groups.

You could start with ABB "Orinoco" - it is sparingly fertile. When crossed with wild balbisiana pollen, you might get 10 or more good seeds per bunch. The reciprocal cross - female balbisiana and Orinoco pollen might be even better. I haven't performed this cross - yet.


You'll have to harvest pollen at twilight or later.

If on growout of seeds (you'd need about 100 good seedlings) you're lucky to get a diploid offspring that's parthenocarpic and male and/or female fertile -you've begun your journey.

You'd have captured the p1 gene in your recombined "balbisiana".

Keep backcrossing to balbisiana to gradually eliminate as much acuminata that you can and select to keep the parthenocarpy and large fruit.


You can then try to use pollen from a hardy basjoo or itinerans on the diploid parthenocarp.You might end up with an interesting diploid or tetraploid...

You're looking at 10-15 years.


You can try to shortcut by using hardy vars of basjoo or itinerans pollen on Orinoco or, better, using the reciprocal cross. I really prefer using wild diploid females - they are lots easier to work with. however, I have never performed those crosses.

You might get some immediately useful triploids in the first batch.

As an important aside; I don't think people in cold areas should look solely at cold hardiness. Look at an ultra short growing cycle - as happens with velutina. Which does cross with balbisiana.
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Currently I'm using Orinoco/Bluggoe; Saba & Pelipita ABBs to make large fruited parthenocarpic diploid balbisiana for tropical banana growing & processing on degraded lands.


sdc

whynot

that's awesome info, really helps give me some direction in this. Is there a list anywhere of the male/female fertility of cultivars? anyone know about Viente Chohol?

luteo

I too am interested in any publications that break down the cultivars, their fertility, and compatibility. Totally new to bananas, so I only understand that we have lots of sterile cultivars and then wild stuff. And that the A-B system exists. Purchasing some seeds to start and get the hang of raising them up. My interest lies in not only hardiness, but also maintaining genetic diversity, and the cultivars used for textiles and dyeing.

Richard

"Purchasing some seeds to start and get the hang of raising them up".

I'm sorry it's not that easy.

"the A-B system exists"

I'm sorry, and wish I could rectify, but you are exposing a 2-3 year void in biology/genetics education.

Most of us here know about Viente Cohol, and especially that there is no interest in propagating it for commercial or backyard purposes.

How about telling us a little more about where you live and what your goals are, and we can give you some recommendations to go forward with?

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luteo

I am well aware it's not easy to grow bananas from seed. I am also not lacking in 2-3 years of biology. But thanks for the assumption. I am referring to this classification of banana cultivars by AAA to BBB type, of which I am only learning what belongs where.

-Good Day

Richard

Check out the Musa Germplasm Information System

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PR-Giants

Read the papers done by Simmonds at the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture, they're old but it's a good starting point.

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druss

I would like to try something like this. I have a few musa blue java bananas and given their level of hardiness, I think they could be good candidates for crossing with cold hardy wild species. But im curious, why would an ABB be better than an AB for crossing, given AB have the same gene count as the wild cold tolerant species and higher fertility? Helens hybrid after all is that of an AB and musa sikkemensis. Okay it's seeded, but the cross had just as high a chance of being seedless. Are the triploids hardier?

c2h6

The issue that's confusing is the common misconception equating seedlessness (parthenocarpy) with being triploid. The two are actually unrelated for the most part. I imagine being triploid enhances the sterility, but diploid and tetraploid bananas can be seedless if they carry the parthenocarpy gene. So what is being suggested is to use a triploid as your female with a modicum of fertility carrying the parthenocarpy gene, and then use the wild M. balbisiana (or whatever variety) as your source of cold hardiness. The resulting offspring may result in a seedless, cold hardy, and hopefully edible banana. A lot of the banana breeding programs use triploids as their females, and possibly as their males, too. I agree that in a breeding quest for a cold hardy banana you should also consider the short cycle bananas.