sirdoofus

I am giving sand a try for freshly divided pups and have a few questions specific to using sand as a potting medium. I have been reading through various sources of information and am just looking for input from others who have had success with it.

I am using silica pool filter sand as recommended by Ty Taylor - I haven't been able to find the horticultural sand or clean course sand as recommended by PR Giants around here, but the pool filter sand seems like a reasonable substitute as its fairly course without much in the way of fines. I did mix in a small amount of powdered organic fertilizer.

Specifically I am potting up small pups that have recently been separated from the plant and don't have a huge number of roots. They do have some leaves which I am leaving on but cutting back as needed.

My questions:

How often do folks water their propagules in sand? From what I have read it sounds like its pretty hard to over water them, but of course I suppose its possible. Also a little concerned about under watering as I am super gun shy when it comes to irrigating potted bananas as the weather gets cooler.

Fertlizing. It is getting late in the season, we still have some time, which will be extended indoors with supplemental light, but I don't want to put too much pressure on them this late. As mentioned there is a small amount of organic fert in the mix, but wondering if I should be fertilizing additionally as the plant establishes.

In this thread Time to separate the variegated pups PR Giants mentions "With the proper amount of fertilizer these newly separated pups grow fast."

but I am not really sure what that might mean and if/or when to consider applying it. Generally I wouldn't fertilize new divisions early in the process, but maybe that isn't always a problem?

At what point might one consider re-potting in a more 'traditional' mix, or would you just leave it in the sand until putting it in the ground?

Best technique for getting the plant out of the sand without tearing roots, or would you just pot up/plant it as is like one might do with any other potted plant?

Any experience, good or bad, would be very much appreciated.

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beam2050

hmelendez down in miami, a good friend of ty's was using it with great success by his pic's. me, i tried it and it stayed to wet. don't know what i was doing wrong.

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npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

sirdoofus

Oh, interesting. What kind of sand were you using? Did your plants rot?

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beam2050

pool filter sand.

yep, mine were to wet. also the downside of sand and gravel is that in a pot it's formidably heavy with a banana in it. pool filter sand allows water to travel thru it readily, but silica sand wants to stay wet. i worked for a company that did monitoring wells for the government, so i have a lot of experience with the stuff.

sand and gravel can be good for starting small plants.

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npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

sirdoofus

Yes, that is true. They are definitely heavy even though the plants are small. I wouldn't do it with bigger plants, I ain't that young anymore

I am thinking if this works and I continue to use it, a trial with 50% perlite might be a good idea to keep the weight down. Mostly I am playing around with this in order to, hopefully, get plants to root faster and provide a good over winter mix that won't promote rot. Your experience with pool filter sand does not bode well for that though.

I might pull one of them to see what's going on underneath, just to make sure the same thing isn't going on for my plants.

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beam2050

i pulled up one of his old threads for you. hector did great pics.

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npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

sirdoofus

Thank you, I will take a look through his posts.

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beam2050

i don't believe the pics i pulled up are pool filter sand, but i remember that at one time he was using a much finer sand. also i believe that some places offer pool filter sand, some fine and some more coarse. there are places that sell silica sand in different sizes. there is one here that we bought from for our wells. and there is a lot of companies that require that sand a over the world.

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npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

sirdoofus

The stuff I bought didn't look as course as the course sand in PR Giants' posts, but it is definitely courser than other sand I was able to find. It has been washed and strained to remove the fines, but probably not a bad idea to consider adding some courser material.

I pulled one of the pups and it looked OK, not stellar, but not bad either. Didn't really look like it had started pushing any new roots (although maybe), and some of the roots that were transplanted had started to turn black (my understanding is that's not terribly unusual and hopefully not a harbinger of failure). The corm seemed fine. I guess we'll just see what happens.

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cincinnana

Hector uses a sandy mix to propagate his newly received rhizomes.

Once the plants get sorted out the plant gets planted in the sandy southern tropical soil.

Here is a link to Hector's propagation pics.
All materials are purchased at the local brick-and-mortar store.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151124777@N03


For indoor growing, you will need a lighter medium skip the sand in your mix, and create a traditional mix with lighter properties.
Here is a link with some takeaways from using a traditional customizable mix.
All guesswork has been removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostaf...57659727243221


Perlite
Peat moss or well-aged bark
Pine fines-optional



Even more important is the lighting and temperature of the planned indoor growing area.
Without the correct environment, the soil is meaningless.

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sirdoofus

Fair enough. This is something I will need to think about for sure. I have been keeping them in my garage, but it can get a bit chilly in there. I do have an area enclosed with reflective material on all sides + top and a south facing window (covered with clear plastic to minimize chill) with supplemental grow lighting, but the temp has probably been a little low at times. I have several heat mats I was going to put in there this year and am even considering a heater for the colder periods. I'll get this %*#& figured out one of these years.

I have already potted my main plants in the 50:25:25 perlite, sand, bark mix....as mentioned in this thread Over winter potting mix? do you suggest I re-think that?

Thank you very much for the links and info.

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beam2050

when hector started this he used just pool filter sand. then he graduated to the mix that you are seeing. so i suspect he had some failures with just pool filter sand.

one cheap way to get your mix a bit larger is mixing in aquarium rock. use the rough textured aquarium rock as appossed to the round pebbly rock.

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npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

sirdoofus

That makes sense if he started with straight filter sand but no longer uses it by itself. I definitely have a few products I can add to the mix to increase the average particle size

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beam2050

it's the fines that are going to kill you. around the corm, not the roots.

you can almost drown the roots. but you have to keep the corm dry. that's the secret, that's the trick, that's what most people don't understand in this. the problem people have with their small banana's is that a [banana loves water], over watering, they are drowning/rotting the corm. with your sand mix the question is, how often do you water? that be the tricky part of it. the more coarse, the more you can water. the more fines, the less you water.

i bet i can grow a banana in just perlite around the corm. never tried it, but just for fun. ?

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npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

Jeff zone 8 N.C.

For those of you struggling to find a coarse sand (I am) I found something that looks as coarse as the sand in PR Giants pictures and may be better than sand for those of us outside the tropics. It is a baked clay product that looks like those standard red clay pots chopped in tiny uniform particles. It is sterile, very coarse, fairly cheap, has tiny pores in each grain, and may be widely available. It is heavy. It drains like water through a window screen. You can not get water to puddle in a pot. It runs straight through. Is it a good grow medium? I have used it this summer with good results. I do not know the qualities of it versus other mediums. I potted up an AeAe, a Florida, two NoNo, and several sensitive Alocasia's as well as some palm seedlings and all are doing well. It's called "Turface MVP". All are doing well in a mix with 3/4 MVP and 1/4 perlite, with just a handful of organic potting mix thrown in (I know that adds up to more than 4 quarters but you get it). I will post a link but if it does not help they use this stuff on athletic fields so many cities and athletic organizations may be able to tell you a local seller. My link shows a bag that weighs 50 pounds and is about as large or a little larger than the largest potting soil bags sold at say a Wal Mart.
https://www.ewingoutdoorsupply.com/5...ld-conditioner

PR-Giants

The proper amount of fertilizer is zero and the focus should be on getting the aeration and moisture of the underground environment correct.

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PR-Giants

When I shipped Hector and Ty their A'ea'e rhizomes I explained to them the benefits of planting in clean course sand but they both had difficulties finding that grain size and instead decided to substitute it with silica pool filter sand.

It's important to understand why just about any grain size will work and how the different grain sizes affect performance.

Clean sand breathe at a constant rate and has no organic material decaying near the rhizome. When organic material is added the soil will breathe based on the changing moisture levels which is much more difficult to control.

Clean sand keeps the aeration constant and simple.

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Sand grain size can be confusing

The difference between pool filter sand and horticultural sand is similar to the difference between a baseball and a basketball.

There is much more space in between a group of basketballs versus a group of baseballs.

The larger the grain of sand the the higher the soil aeration.

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sirdoofus

Thank you for the clarifications, very much appreciated!

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PR-Giants

Anyone that's been in a greenhouse has seen how roots behave in a zone of high humidity. Replicating that in a pot of coarse sand is very simple and can be accomplished with many different materials. I prefer a material that can be placed on top of the coarse sand and is easily molded to shape, retains high aeration levels (which means it has structure), retains a high moisture level for an extended period of time, is biodegradable but doesn't degrade quickly, and provides a perfect environment to promote maximum root growth.

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