barnetmill

Re: Grafting Re: Favorite fruiting mulberry cultivars
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
Could be different hybrid, species, or cultivar.

Yes they are different and that is the point the tree in question is not making useful fruit and grafting to something would be better.

I disagree. The distribution of minerals from septic is not very appropriate for deciduous fruit trees. In particular it is very low in Potash.

I do not know enough and will look into potash. I do know that trees near my septic tank even if not ideal for nutrition do grow better than anywhere else on the property.
Quote:
This is a misconception. We feed the tree this year for next year's crop. Once the tree starts uptaking the Potash, it will take at least 3 months for processes in the roots to manufacture basic compounds to produce enzymes and carbohydrates. These will be utilized on an as needed basis. The processes for fruit production won't begin until winter begins.

You are correct about a yrs advance being important, but I am not happy waiting another year for what seems to be a looser. Many tree produce well one yr and do little the nx yr. Out of 4 mulberry trees that are currently producing this is the poorest and seems not a good tree to keep. It seems to be the sulfur that you believe to most important and I will certainly look into that. There must be some sulfur in the septic tank since it is contained in many proteins that are consumed and excreted. I have used wood ashes on most of my trees, but not this one. Wood ash probably does not have too much sulfur in it.

Thanks very much for your insightful advice.

Richard

Nope, its the potash.

Wood ash is a source of potash but very low concentration. Potassium sulfate is a common, inexpensive supplement. For wood ash, you'll need to put down 20 lbs per tree over the course of a year to obtain "net 1 pound" of potash, but with potassium sulfate you'll only need 2 lbs per tree over the course of a year.

Certainly your plants near the septic will grow better than those without nutrient supply -- mainly due to the nitrogen sources from the septic. Fruit quality comes from availability of potash in the prior seasons. Further, too much potash can be toxic to plants. For a mature tree that is at least 6 feet high and wide, "net 1 pound" of potash per year is about right.

Lastly I understand your interest in removing/grafting-over the mulberry you are dissatisfied with. Go for it. My recent comments in this thread have been to point out that (a) with the exception of white fruit, color and size of fruit is usually not an indication of species in Mulberries and (b) with proper nutrition you will realize the actual size and quality of fruit a tree is capable of.

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barnetmill

Thanks Richard for the info. I just so happen to have a couple of gallon jugs of sand that are mixed with NaSO4. I will try it on some trees that have never grown a bit which are a pecan and a walnut. I thought it was zinc deficiency that was the cause, but the worst the sulfate would do would be to kill them and since they have not grown in several years there is nothing to lose on them if they die from my treatment. My past philosophy due to how busy I have been is to plant with minimal care and if it does not do well plant something else. I have had some successes at this. But I have noted that my neighbors in their small back yards that are for lawn growing have trees that grow at twice as fast as mine, so a little more care would be appreciated by my plants. Next yr when I retire I will spend more time trying to make everything survive and eventually take a master gardening course.

Richard

Sodium Sulfate (NaSO4) is a death sentence to most plants and the soil. Most fertilizer manufacturers go to great pains to keep sodium out of their products. If you apply it, it might take a few to several years of leaching before anything grows there again.

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Darkman

Barnetmill,

I'll be retired then too and I believe that between the two us we can overcome these problems If they can be overcome. I would suggest you don't get to drastic on anthing till you have the luxury of TIME to fix it.

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barnetmill

I have do have some other things that I would really like to kill in some areas like popcorn trees and other invasives that do not die readily. I probably need to get sapling puller for them. If my planted trees grew as well as the wild volunteers I would really be very happy. Many years ago I was out west and you could see where standing runoff water from irrigation would raise alkali salts from below and poison low lying areas. Salt or NaCl has been used for years by invading forces to poison the soil. So you are saying perhaps K2SO4 is ok and Na2SO4 is bad? We get 60 inches of rain here a year so maybe it would stay around and maybe it would not. I will have to look this up for sure.
Thanks for the warning.

Richard

Most salts are acid forming. Plants feed on a variety of water-soluble minerals, which is another name for salts. Some common salts (such as NaCl, aka table salt) are toxic to plants. Plants do not feed on plant material. It must be broken down by micro-organisms and acidic compounds in the soil into water-soluble minerals or elemental carbon, nitrogen for uptake by plants.

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barnetmill

The soil in my area is said be acidic. Since I am working on a regular basis with a pH meter for testing of rainwater, I maybe should look up the procedure for testing soil to see what my pH is. Blue berries which like acidic soil grow wild throughout our area. I planted some commercial varieties and as long as they are weeded they grow well. The older settlers of my region area would put sulfur compounds about their blueberries to increase the yield and from what I understand blueberries like acidic conditions. I understand that they are related to cranberries which naturally grow in bogs. I guess we got a little away from mulberries but I have learned lot about what I do not know.
Thanks very much.

lkailburn

Glad someone mentioned Illinois Everbearing. The local nursery had one in stock so i grabbed it! I'm currently rooting some cuttings of my grandfather's mulberry tree. It's just a seedling tree, now 30+ years old and he said it's rubbish compared to good varierties. The berries are small and not as sweet, more sweet-tart but i think it's absolutely delicious!!!!

-Luke

venturabananas

The Pakistani mulberry that I sampled at Jon's house (Pitangodiego) was very tasty, with huge fruit, and a nice looking tree.

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bananaT

I have two that I really like.

The White Pakistan. Wonderful fruit. I don't really like berries that are too tart, so this works nicely. Plus the birds don't bother them. The plants themselves are nice looking. And I haven't had any pest problems with them either.
It breaks very early though, so early as to do it before the knew year if it gets cold, than warms up. its not as cold tolerant too. Very much worth it.

The other is the Paper mulberry, Brosonetia papiriferia (if that's spet right). Its not related to these mulberries we're talking about but...

I have a male and female tree, so if we get a very cold winter, like '10 and '11, it will fruit!
The male is beyond vigorous. It takes over every inch it can, by suckers and branches growing 15 feet tall a year.
The female is very poor performer here in Florida though.
But the fruit is a rare prize. They're like little redish pom-poms, you just eat the outside of it. Very tasty. Something unique....

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T.Farms

barnetmill

according to wki So it is related. My question for those out there is could it cross pollinate with our more common mulberries and not require a male of the same species? Your local in lakeland is a little colder than me. If I would go 30 miles north then once in a while we could reach 10 F also.

bananaT

Well it is different enough to afford its own genus. Im not sure when it was put there.
Ive read somewhere its more related to bread fruit, and Chinese oranges than actual mulberries.

The males flower each year, and in years past, without male Morus available, have not pollinated my female mulberries that need pollination.

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T.Farms

Richard

A more definitive source for taxonomy of plants, especially in terms of genetic relationships (tribes) is:

Taxonomy Query for GRIN Species Records

Although it is not complete in terms of exotics and some plants only known in east Asia, it is constantly being updated. Credible suggestions are taken seriously. I recommend it to everyone.

The true Mulberries are in genus Morus which is a group of species in the genetic tribe Moreae.

As bananaT points out, the "Paper Mulberry" Broussonetia papyrifera is also in the genetic tribe Moreae. The original classification in Morus was made in 1753 but updated by a taxonomist abbreviated "Vent." for which I have no reference. The plant is grown for fiber, not fruit. Here is an interesting article on the plant found in the references on the GRIN page: Broussonetia papyrifera (paper mulberry). The plant is part of the germplasm collection at the U.S. Natl. Germplasm Repository - Miami.

It would be unusual if any of the Morus species could pollenize a Broussonetia species, and stranger still for B. papyrifera since it is dioecious. If successful, the resulting seeds could grow interesting hybrids.

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venturabananas

Not me, I think that was BananaT.

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barnetmill

This is one the internet listings that I use: Welcome to the PLANTS Database | USDA PLANTS.
I was assigned to do some data base entry relative plants and to check the correctness of spellings I use this,

Richard

Yes, it is built on top of the GRIN database and integrates geographical information -- also narrowing the results to North America.

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bananaT

Yes, very interesting.

Richard, have you ever had the opportunity to try a paper mulberry fruit?
Probably not.
For local consumption they should be a crop that's grown.

They would definitely make interesting hybrids as well.
They flower at the same time, but it would be quite a task to grow out seeds to see if hybridization took place. I don't think it would happen naturally, too easily.

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Richard

I'm not sure I've ever seen the plant, let alone taste the fruit.

The research papers discussing cross-Genus hybridization that I've come across were mostly concerned with North American and/or European fruits in the Rosaceae family. In all cases hormones were utilized which I believe you'll need a license to purchase. An "end around" to that is to get involved with a breeder at a USDA or university sites and carry out the experiments at their location. If it works out, you get a plant and they get a publication.

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sunfish